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I'm talking about knowing lots of voicings/grips for chords. I used to think to be a really great jazz player, whether using chords for chord-melody, or comping, or in a soloing context for that matter, that one really needed a massive knowledge of different ways to play chords (I have all the Ted Greene books!), but now I wonder a bit about things. When watching top jazz guitarists it often seems to me that I am familiar with all (or 99%) of the chord shapes they use, but clearly they are putting it all together in ways that are just streets ahead of what I could manage. So maybe it's not quite so much how many chord shapes you know (though I guess it still doesn't hurt to know lots!) but more how you use them? And if that is the case, how do you develop the ability to use the shapes you know more effectively?
So would any of you care to comment, I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on this issue. Cheers!
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07-26-2011 04:17 PM
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They say Wes didn't know as many chords as say , Johnny Smith or Van EPs. However he played the shit out of the ones he did know.
A lot of players like Joe Pass, Barry Galbraith, Bucky , etc tend to have their favorite voicings. None of them are that fancy or difficult to play. Most of them come right out of the drop 2/3 charts.
Then you get the other end of the coin for people like Ben Monder, Vic J, Ralph Towner, etc, that learn all kinds of voicings and use them.
To me it's a never ending quest finding new voicings. I should have started to write them down years ago
What eventually happens with chords though is that after a while you start to see them as you play, on the fly so to speak. After studying them long enough you begin to see movement in the voices (Like Van Eps, Smith, Breau and Ted Greene among others).
Plus a lot of it comes form listening and studying piano charts (especially Evans)
One way you might start to get more millage out you chords is to play them in progressions (ii v i) in different inversions but all using the same strings and not jumping about.
ex: Dmi7 G7 Cma7 on strings 4321. Starting closest to the nut and working your way up
1) xxFCDA
xxFBDG
xxEBCG
2) xxADFC
xxGDFB
xxGCFB
3) xxCFAD
xxBFGD
xxBEGC
4) xxDACF
xxDGBF
xxCGBE
See how the notes move into the next chord, how each voice moves? The use of common tones between chord?
Then try them substituting Fma/Dm to G7/Db7 Cma7/Emi/Ami7 .
one example:
xxFCEA to FCDE (Dmi7)
xxFBDG to FB Db Ab (G7)
xxEBDG to EBCG (Cma7)
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I think it's always good to expand your vocabulary continuously, the more the merrier. But I think you came to a good conclusion, its not necessarily the amount of voicings you know, but all the different possibilities you know of how a voicing can be used. For example knowing something as simple as seeing a chart with Emi7(9) and knowing you can play a Gmaj7 voicing as a substitute can open up a lot of possibilities. But as I said before, it is always good to explore for new voicings and shapes. If you haven't checked out Ben Monder you will be blown away by his variety of voicings.
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The answer's always "one more."
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I think the song is the star, so playing the songs with standard voicings will sound good because of the wonderful harmonic movement. You want to hear the changes well and play in good time with a nice sound first and foremost. Time and feel are the most important. I'm still trying to sound good using common voicings after many years of playing, damn maybe it's time to learn some new chord voicings, I've been thinking about it ....
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With most 3 or 4 note chord voicings having the potential of being used as 3 or more different chords, vocabulary is very much about application. Some voicings can work very well if lacking one tone, like the R, 5, and even the 3.
I might use a simple G B E voicing as:
Cma7
A9
Dbm7b5
Em
G6
Looking at it this way, knowing good grips to five different chords can yield 20 to 25 chords. Very exponential.
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John, thank you for you insightful and thoughtful answer, and the helpful advice and tips. Maybe a bit more than my rather clumsily put question deserved, but still it's great stuff, and I'm grateful.
Originally Posted by JohnW400
Cheers also to Kman, Mr B and GreyJazz - the general gist seems to be a)yes, learn to use your standard voicings more effectively, and b) still keep learning about chords and new chord forms. So no easy way out there - I guess it's a lifetime study kind of thing (or is it a life sentence?
). Thanks though guys!
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My rule of thumb is pretty simple... I need to be able to play any note on top of any chord. I long ago quit worrying about inner voices,(not really, but we hear them whether their played or not).
To start you need two versions, lower and upper parts of neck, of all the chords based on the major scale, Melodic and harmonic minor, or as many refer to... the three minors. That would be three times seven, or 21 basic chords plus the 2nd version of each... that makes 42. Throw in a few symmetrical scale derived chords and your ready to work with the lead notes.
When I think of, for example Cmaj7, I think of all the chords which imply Cmaj as one... Cmaj7, 9, 11, 13 or versions of. same with each of those 21 basic chords.
Most guitarist have lead lines they like and use a lot. They develop their personal style... I don't really like diminished or any of the symmetrical chords and usually use subs, etc... that's one of my personal styles... not good or bad etc... I obviously can cover them when I need too... but when I have a choice.... Anyway I hope that helps. If you check out my videos you will easily see and hear what I like. I usually beat them into the ground... I'm a very standard player most of the time... best Reg
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Thanks CG, a good point well made, and obviously very apt to my original questions. This I guess is one of the aspects that a great jazz guitarist will have to their playing. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Reg, that's very helpful, thank you. I love your practical, honest, nuts and bolts way of working/thinking - the results you get are sophisticated, but I appreciate how you are able to describe how you get to that point in a plain and easy to understand way. Maybe you should write a book on jazz guitar (if you haven't already?) IMO you have a gift for jazz education as well as playing the stuff! Originally Posted by Reg
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I find transcription helps with this - "ah, that's what he/she is doing!" Originally Posted by Meggy
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Nice point Bill - kind of illustrates what I mean. Often I'm watching a great jazz guitarist, the sounds seem new and sophisticated, I think "wish I knew what that was" but when I really look at the shapes they are using, they are actually familiar to me. So transcribing has to be a good idea! Originally Posted by Bill C
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One thing that has drastically changed my thinking in the past few years, Meggy, was my correspondence with David Oakes and the late Jimmy Wyble. I have found, through ideas they gave me, that you can create so much out of the things you already know, by breaking them down into different sound combinations. Memorizing a lot of voicings is fine, and I try to do it, but if you always approach chords as chords, and not potential voices, you are missing a lot of what is already there. Look at David's articles on the Jimmy Wyble Tribute and his Arrangements.
David Oakes
I've mentioned him before, but I can't say enough how much his stuff has changed my playing.
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I think the best way is just to try using the same voicings you know over different things - experiment with it.
One book that really helped me in this manner is "A Create Approach to Piano Harmony" by Bill Dobbins. I used mainly the big ideas of it to the guitar.
One point that Dobbins is making, is that it is far more effective to learn how to superimpose the simple things you know over different things to create new sounds than to learn thousands of different voicings to the same chord. and he is 100% right.
For example, try using all the drop 2 inversions of a type of chord over different roots.
the same chord could be used over 4-5 roots and sound convincing, by adding the inversions you get new flavors of the same thing.Last edited by hed_b94; 07-27-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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Many thanks for putting in the link again jseaberry, I had missed that before. It looks like really terrific stuff, and a great website I have to say. I just looked at the first Jimmy Wyble etude - at the moment it seems like something from another world to me... certainly outside of my comfort zone, and in a very different stylistic area to what I'm used to. But that is one of the great things about the guitar I think - it is so multi-faceted. But I can see this is serious stuff, so I will be going back for more, cheers! Originally Posted by jseaberry
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Interesting reference hed, thank you. Not heard of that book before, it sounds really excellent. In general the idea to experiment is really important I think, and a good that you draw attention to this. Originally Posted by hed_b94
If I can just mention, in return, a book I got recently that I really like: "Creative Chord Substitution for Jazz Guitar" by Eddie Arkin. It's really interesting stuff, and takes you outside the normal jazz guitar ways of thinking to some extend, very mind expanding.
Cheers for a great reply to my original post though!
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I'd say you can get away with as little as 8 or 9 fingerings in total if you stick to shell chords on the lower 4 strings and dont use extensions beyond the 7th (which may be wise if you are comping with a pianist who's eager to show his worth). If you add higher extensions and alterations, and use all 6 strings with all inversions, it will of course add to that number, and you can end up with the sky being the limit. However, moderation is a virtue. Don't ever sacrifice rhythmic fluency and good voice leading for complicated intricacy. Freddie Green used no more than those 8-9 basic fingerings - and often created variety by muting some notes, thus making the chords one- or two note chords. The KISS priciple in works!
A student of Barry Galbraith told how he [the student] sometimes cooked up a sophisticated fingering only to have Galbraith turn it down with the words "Nah, too hard".
Another thing is that big chrods with more than 3 or 4 notes sound crowded and muddy on the guitar. Bucky Pizzarelly was qouted saying that as soon as he tried to play thos six note grand barre chords, the flow of the band would stop immediately.
You may want to check out "Three note voicings and beyond" by Randy Vincent (Sher Music) which puts the emphasis on voice leading.
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Wayne Krantz has a completely different viewpoint on chords.
Basically, you just make up accompanying chords as you go; there is no falling back on "learned" or "favorite" voicings. This takes quite a bit of work (I've been working on it for a couple of months now and I'm nowhere near comfortable with it yet), but in the end, because you know what notes are available in whatever area of the fretboard you're in at the moment, & you know what notes would make up the chord you're looking for, you just play them together and you get an appropriate chord.
I found WK's "Improvisor's OS" to be quite eye-opening. It really opens up your playing.
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+1!! Originally Posted by oldane
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I say ace the ones you do know and if you feel bored with those, learn some new ones. I used to try and learn a bunch of stuff at the same time, and then later realized I still wound up using the same chords anyways, which mean I hadn't really LEARNED anything....
The only point of learning something new in my opinion is so that you can actually USE it or its a waste of time...
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A search seems to indicate that he experiments with alternative tunings. And in that video when he gets to the single note parts his fingering seems quite tight. So perhaps those voicings aren't standardly available? Maybe one of you pros can tell. Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
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Ben Monder briefly played a few bass/guitar duo brunch gigs at Barbes in Brooklyn down the block from me.
They played jazz standards exclusively, calling tunes on the bandstand. He has an extremely nuanced harmonic vocabulary,
big hands and played some of the strecthiest chords I've ever seen anyone play in real time. He would on occasion bring his arm
into positions that would be generally awkward but allowed him to achieve a workable angle to play one particular chord.
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If you know the notes in a particular harmony and you know the fingerboard, then you can see the available notes in each region and create voicings on the fly.
You can also take the same notes and through permutation find many voicings and inversions of each chord. From there you simply locate the notes on the guitar and judge it's sonic value and playability. I feel that chords that I can't play simultaneously still have value played broken up into segments. Ben Monder in a 1st lesson to a friend of mine gave him 24 voicings of 7th chords to learn.
If you view chords from the prism of major, minor and dominant families then it it largely expands possible interpretations of a chord symbol.
Working with a mode or a collection of notes that support the particular family, combining functional notes with color tones, extensions, dissonance.
Knowledge of progression, substitution, reharmonization is another level.
As someone mentioned earlier, many chords have multiple meanings. Learning to hear the same notes in several contexts has great value.
My feeling is I want to know as much as possible about harmony, combining hand dexterity with fingerboard knowledge to create voicings.
I practice voicings to learn their sound and acclimate my hands but I don't worry about memorization because unless I retune the guitar
the notes will still be in the same place I left them next time.
We are all different, our musical preferences and goals. Our time available to dedicate to music is another variable.
How many chords is enough? I can't know what is right for you but my suggestion is to build a strong enough foundation so that
the necessity for the rote memorization of chord shapes will become less important.
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I have to say that most of the best principles you can think of have been set out very well in this thread. I just hope this thread doesn't get lost in oblivion because the outlined principles make so much sense.
I know for a fact that there are a heck of a lot more chords than any one individual knows. The hardest thing for me to learn was that knowing a lot of chords meant squat (except to all your guitar playing buddies. The guy knowing the most chords wins. What I don't know). The key was knowing where and how to use them. You may have a great voicing but whatcha gonna do with it? When I discovered the pianistic approach, the old collection of block formations and diagrams went away in favor of a more fluid approach. It was not only more efficient but much more musical in character. Just my ramblings.
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Adding my tuppence worth of advice: the best book on guitar playing or any music instrument for that matter (I have read) is Strunk and White's The Elements of Style.
Just because you know a lot of big words does not mean that you should use all of them, all the time, indiscriminately, trying to impress the hell out of your listeners. So it is with chords, I guess. (Please bear in mind that I am nothing but a noodling vulgarian.)
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Thanks everyone! I thought this thread had already generated some great answers, and then come to a natural close - then it takes off again, and there's even more great answers and ideas! This forum is second to none for getting great help and advice IMO. I think everything posted here is relevant and good, there are different viewpoints expressed, but all reflect good approaches to the business of learning and using a chord vocabulary effectively. Probably, were one to follow up every lead here, there would be years of work. It could take me a while just to investigate everything in a more basic way. Still, I'd rather that than a load of superficial answers - this place always comes up with the heavy-duty stuff! Cheers to all, thank you.
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You can really learn like 2 -3 voicings for each kind of chord, learn where each chord tone is (as in root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, ect), and learn how to alter those. You'll learn more chords that way seeing as how you think before you play it. Good chords to do this with is with the diminished voicing xx5656 or with the 13th voicing xx345x or the 4ths voicing xx4455 (moveable shapes). The reason being is that these exact shapes can be kept the same but can be called about 10 other things. You can also add on to these chords, or modify a note in each chord.
When you get good at this practice altering notes in less alterable chord shapes (majors or minors). I found this cool Major 13th voicing when I simply altered the root on a major 7th voicing, which I also realized can be used as a modal chord (this is coming from the Vic Juris modern chords book).
You can also take the shell voices from a chord and add onto that and figure out voicings by yourself. Also a cool thing to do is use two note voicings that aren't shell voicings. I like playing Major 7ths as just the root and the 7th to get a really cool minor 2nd clash sound, which actually goes along with the harmony. You can also space them out in actual 7ths which eliminates a lot of the clash. It can also work as a 7b9.
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