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I have a question on Mickey Baker's book Lesson #3:
Standard progression: ||G///| Gmi///| G///| Gdim///| Ami///| D7///| G ///| Gdim///| Ami///| D7///|| What are the roman numeral numbering for this. I have I, ?, I, ?, ii, V, I, ?, ii, V. How would I represent the ones with a question mark. Below the standard progression he has |Gmaj7 Gmaj6|Gmin7 Gmin6| Gmaj7 Gmaj6|Bmin7 Bbmin7|Amin7 Amin6|Amin7 D13b5b9|Gmaj7 Bbmin7|Amin7 D13b5b9|. For this I have I, ?, I, iii7 biii7, ii7, V7, I, biii7, ii7, V.
Is this right? How 'bout the ones with a question mark. I'm really trying to understand everything. I'm on lesson 16 right now but there's still some gaps in my understanding of the material.
Thanks
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06-20-2011 03:57 PM
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G - Gmi = 1 - 1mi (If I Had You 4 -4mi)(Green Dolphin St 1 - 1mi)
G - Gdim - Am7 - D7 = 1 - 1dim - 2mi - 57 (If I Had You)
Etc.
Don't get too hung up on understanding the theory. The most important thing is to get the chords under your fingers.
This is a helpful site to find various progressions in songs: http://www.ralphpatt.com/Tonal.htmlLast edited by Drumbler; 06-21-2011 at 07:15 AM.
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Below the standard progression he has |Gmaj7 Gmaj6|Gmin7 Gmin6| Gmaj7 Gmaj6|Bmin7 Bbmin7|Amin7 Amin6|Amin7 D13b5b9|Gmaj7 Bbmin7|Amin7 D13b5b9|. For this I have I, ?, I, iii7 biii7, ii7, V7, I, biii7, ii7, V.
I would not put the 7 after the roman numerals on the minor chords. To me it is saying make the minor a Dominant. Also with the V7, i would make a mental note that it is alt.
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Roman numeral analysis doesn't really translate well to jazz. Also, it's easy to be misled by substituted chords, and passing notes can confuse the matter as well.
For the "standard progression" you have listed, I would call the first 4 bars I. The next three is a ii, V, I, and that is repeated.
Don't make it too hard on yourself. Now, technically, you might say what I put is an over-simplification, but you don't seem quite ready for the long version. In any case, it doesn't change the analysis fundamentally, it's just more detail.
(BTW - listing minor (and diminished) chords with a 7th is entirely appropriate and historically correct, it does not change the chord or its meaning in any way.)Last edited by Gitarguy; 06-22-2011 at 12:41 AM. Reason: bad grammar
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Just because it was done in the past does not mean it should be done now. Chord notation has evolved quite a bit over the years. Most modern players I've encountered would be confused by that notation. The 7 on a minor should be reserved for cases that the chord is dominant when it would usually be minor. Otherwise you would actually have to write out "dominant" , witch takes more time and space.
Originally Posted by Gitarguy
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no , Dominant chords have a major 3rd so are written in upper case Originally Posted by Sandor
eg V7 or III7 etc
lowercase means the chord is minor (has a minor third) eg ii7 iii7 etc
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Unless the person forgot or made a typo. Happens all of the time. But what ever works best for you is the answer.
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||I |i |I |io |Standard progression: ||G///| Gmi///| G///| Gdim///| Ami///| D7///| G ///|
Gdim///| Ami///| D7///|| What are the roman numeral numbering for this. I have
I, ?, I, ?, ii, V, I, ?, ii, V. How would I represent the ones with a question
mark.
|ii |V7 |I |io |
|ii | V7 ||
thats ten bars right ?
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The Roman numeral system works fine for jazz--just be a little more specific.
Imaj7, I6, Imaj7#11, iim7, iim9, V7b9, V13, etc.
Players I know use Roman Numerals all the time--easiest way to think when needing to transpose too.
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Agreed. Much better outline and won't confuse the noob, much less players that are more specific. I was only trying to help the guy be aware. Not correct him or give him disinformation. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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No, frelon, I dug that--sorry--didn't mean to make my post sound like a response to yours--I was more addressing Sandor and Gitarguy's assertions that the ROman Numeral system is outdated and not used...
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Below the standard progression he has |Gmaj7 Gmaj6|Gmin7 Gmin6| Gmaj7
Gmaj6|Bmin7 Bbmin7|Amin7 Amin6|Amin7 D13b5b9|Gmaj7 Bbmin7|Amin7 D13b5b9|.
eight bars right ? did you miss a couple of bar lines maybe?
|I | i | I | iii biii |
|ii | ii V13b5b9| I biii |ii V13b5b9 |
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agreed with Mr B
Roman numeral system is good for analysing tunes
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I didn't say it was outdated and unused, I said it didn't translate well. In RNA analysis, I6 means something entirely different, and I7 doesn't exist, since RNA is a system of functional analysis, rather than mere chord labeling. Indeed, there is a difference between chord progession and chord succession.
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My apologies. Gitarguy, I was confusing yours and sandor's responses.
I do use it for jazz though, particularly when playing with singers who don't really know "their key."
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Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Pingu, it's actually eight bars. the last two measures are |G Gdim|Ami D7|. The way you numbered the progression makes sense to me. The first four bars of this progression was the thing that I was confused about. You put i for the Gmi, does that mean the progression modulates briefly into the key of Gmi for just one bar then back to I in Gmaj. And playing Gdim in the next bar doesn't really change the tonality, right. Is it just another way of playing G, to spice things up so to speak. Originally Posted by pingu
Last edited by smokinguit; 06-23-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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I see some value in using the Roman Numeral System--esp for transposing--but in using the Mickey Baker book, I don't. (-I'm two lessons from the end, and this is the first time I've stuck through it all the way, giving it at least one hour a day, often more, and giving several lessons many weeks of work.)
Maybe when I work through it again, I'll pay more attention to that, but for now I just want to be able to play all the progs and lines with a good feel, then play around with them.
Once you get to the vamps, you'll see how the progressions work. You'll see that many *apparently* different progressions are interchangeable. (They might not be if you were playing a specific melody, but as vamps they are.)
If you're in a position where you have to explain the changes to someone else, you might need to buckle down and nail RNA. But for your own journey, it's enough now to play them, feel at home with them, and then tinker around with them.
Understanding is richest when it *follows* the acquisition of much specific information. (My favorite example of what I'm getting at comes from my first Western Civ class in college: the prof told us he wouldn't make us learn a lot of dates and battles but rather, he wanted us the "understand" the big things, like why Rome fell. Well, 22 other people in that class--who knew nothing about Rome when they started, would soon be confident that they had been *educated* on the matter and they knew "Rome fell from within." They didn't know within 200 years when Julius Caesar lived, but that was just "details." I came away realizing that trying to give us "understanding" first was a mistake. It would be better to know a lot about Rome and *then* generalize about a few big things. I think it's better to learn a dozen progressions thoroughly, transpose them, experiment with them, and only *then* fret over *why* these things work.)
The best way to learn is the way that keeps you going.
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In case anyone saw what I wrote before I edited, I misread something he wrote. However, my misreading proves my new point: Relying on upper or lower case is a terrible way to determine if the chord is major, minor, or dominant. Especially if it is handwritten. Too easy to misread. I have had points taken off on theory tests for just that reason. Originally Posted by pingu
BTW, Mr B, i never said roman numeral was outdated. I use it all the time. I meant that the way people use it has changed over the years.Last edited by Sandor; 06-23-2011 at 09:26 PM.
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Fair enough dude .............. Originally Posted by Gitarguy
There's more than one way to skin a cat
eg in C
an E7 chord labled III7 is easy to read , but doesn't show function
or as V/vi (more difficult to read but shows its function)
I guess the first system is more like Nashville number system
used for writing down the changes key independantly
and second ex is for more detailed RNA type analysis
I hope the OP is too confused now !
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Yes that appears to be correct ..........You put i for the Gmi, does that mean the
progression modulates briefly into the key of Gmi for just one bar then back to I in Gmaj.
its difficult to know anything for certain about any given harmony without knowing the tune , but yeah
(I'll remember April goes 4 bars I Maj then 4 bars i min )
[/quote]
And playing Gdim in the next bar doesn't really change the tonality, right.
Is it just another way of playing G, to spice things up so to speak.
Yeah kinda
||G| Gmi| G| Gdim|
| Ami| D7| G Gdim| Ami D7||
you know that a dim7 chord (in this case notes G Bb Db E)
are just a stack of min 3rd intervals yeah ?
well if you sub a Bbdim chord for the Gdim chord
(which is effectivly the same chord)
Just use the Gdim shape up 3 frets
you'll actually hear why that 'Gdim' is there
(I'd call it a passing chord but I'll probably get my ass kicked for that !)
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[/quote]
Yeah kinda
||G| Gmi| G| Gdim|
| Ami| D7| G Gdim| Ami D7||
you know that a dim7 chord (in this case notes G Bb Db E)
are just a stack of min 3rd intervals yeah ?
well if you sub a Bbdim chord for the Gdim chord
(which is effectivly the same chord)
Just use the Gdim shape up 3 frets
you'll actually hear why that 'Gdim' is there
(I'd call it a passing chord but I'll probably get my ass kicked for that !)[/quote]
Hey Pingu, I think you made an error spelling the Gdim chord. It should be G-Bb-Db-Fb (1-b3-b5-bb7).
The Bbdim chord does sound like a passing chord; it smoothly connects to Amin. So the Gdim and the Bbdim is the same chord with different spelling. I've never thought about passing chords this way. My understanding of passing chords would be Gmaj to G#dim to Amin. Interesting.
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Originally Posted by smokinguit
Well, not exactly. The tune did not "modulate" to a minor key. Most likely, it's the result of a chromatic line and/or passing tones. Yes, the Gdim chord would be a passing chord, but it should probably be named something other than G dim. Originally Posted by pingu
Not many pieces genuinely change keys, including compositions with several movements. Many pieces do move through various keys, and even long periods spent "in" another key are usually prolongations of a chord; often the dominant.
This is a pitfall of beat-by-beat RNA; that of a kind of short-sightedness. Specifically, failure to look at the larger, longer relationships and movements, and over-emphasis of minor events.
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What does RNA stand for and what does it mean?
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Roman Numeral Analysis Originally Posted by smokinguit
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OK yeah .... but if you're playing Wave (in D) and you get to the end of the A section and you're playing lots of F# its gonna be fairly horrible isn't it ?This is a pitfall of beat-by-beat RNA; that of a kind of short-sightedness.
Specifically, failure to look at the larger, longer relationships and movements,
and over-emphasis of minor events.
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