substitution/reharmonization principles

**exarctly** · 06-16-2011, 12:03 AM

I welcome a discussion of peoples favorite substitutions...but maybe easier is if anyone can send me links of earlier discussions on this and other websites regarding some hip stuff one can do as an arranger/solo guitarist, or as an improviser, cool turnarounds etc. I saw some discussions over here like this.

One idea I like...tritone substitution, only with a Major 7th chord...
like Dm7 DbMaj7 CMaj7

And I love trying different triads around or on top of or instead of intended triads. Like playing Ab, or Eb or E triads over say a D7 chord.

And I love anything that enables out or sophisticated stuff over major chords. Like a triad a half step down or whole step up against a major chord like C B D# F# Anything where you have interesting triads or fourths voiced over certain things.
Inside outside playing matrixes....any discussion where harmony was the featured topic I would love to hear more about.

Take care,

Brian

**AlohaJoe** · 06-16-2011, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by exarctly

One idea I like...tritone substitution, only with a Major 7th chord... like Dm7 DbMaj7 CMaj7 -Brian

I like tritone subs too. It seems like they often work better on turnarounds than under a singer, depending on the melody. The C in the DbMaj7 when it's used as a sub for the G7 sounds a little odd to me, but context is probably everything. Anything that sounds good is good!

**Reg** · 06-16-2011, 10:43 AM

Any chord can go to any chord.... for players it's how you set it up or how you get there. A basic concept is...a sub. still has reference to the same tonal area, while a reharm usually implies a different tonal area.
So when your backing a vocalist... you need to play any sub or sub chord pattern that changes that tonal area on weak side of harmonic rhythm. The harmonic rhythm is like a rhythmic groove, there's an accent pattern, you can add or take away what ever you want as long as the accent pattern is still implied... still felt. But instead of simply a rhythmic pattern, there's a harmonic pattern... the harmonic rhythm.
I'll put together a list of a bunch of standard subs used all the time and we can get into the reasons why they works ... Sub of a sub etc...

D-7 ............. G7
Fmaj ............ G7, or any inversion of, G/B, G/F etc...
A-6 .............. Abdim7 or Ab-6
D7 ............... Db7 with 9,b9 or #9 etc... use of modal interchange
D13 ..D7b13 . D-7..G7b9, line cliches... there are many
D-7 .............. F-6
F#-7b5 ......... F-6
D-7 .............. Dbmaj
Fmaj ............ Bb7
D7/A ............ Abdim7 or Ab-6
G7sus ........... G/F
D9 ................ D-9
D7/F# ........... F-6
D-11 ............. Db7#11...all the versions of
D-7b5 ........... G7b13... all versions of , b9,#9 etc...
Ab7 ..............G7 #9b13... all versions of each chord
I'll make a new list with different concepts for pulling from

**Kman** · 06-16-2011, 11:10 AM

Reg, this is a great list. This is good stuff to know to help add variety. I need to get to work on it. Thanks.

**exarctly** · 06-16-2011, 12:25 PM

okay, this is what I am looking for. One thing that perplexes me, is the sub of a sub idea... meaning I have heard people say things like you can sub Em7 for Cmaj7 which seems to make sense...and then they are like, you can make a minor chord dominant if you want to...so now C becomes E7...then I still get it...but I wonder how it still really serves the same idea. Could you then play a tritone of the E7and play a Bb7 instead of C?

Then, in some of the examples above, can you show me maybe an example fro ma progression of say the Dbmaj for D-7
or the Bb7 Fmaj 7
are these like little chords you throw in between resolutions to the actual chord...or are you talking about actually replacing the chord.

And I do realize backing up a vocalist is different from other situations. I am more looking for possibilities to push the envelope.

Right now, I kind of am doing this inside outside thing where I feel that I strongly imply or feel the actual harmony but cycle through some pentatonic or triadic type licks that modulate to some places and then get back to the harmony. So maybe on a G7 I will just fool around with like triads A Db Eb or E... or cycle stacked fourths around in and out of key maybe find places it sounds good and then just move it up to a dissonant one and then back to a good one etc. ..not sure exactly what I am doing when I do this, but I recognize the sound from like Herbie or Chick.
Or on like a C major playing around with a D or B triad for instance.

Good stuff. I am somewhat committed jazz musician, and I am way beyond just using tri tones, but am still kind of just starting to get used to some of these other possibilities.

**fep** · 06-16-2011, 01:12 PM

**JohnW400** · 06-16-2011, 01:33 PM

@fep

Nice one

**Reg** · 06-16-2011, 01:42 PM

Hey Exarctly...
Sub of sub... one example I use a lot is how I use blue notes, You have for example; G7 going to C, and C. So the basic tri-tone sub for G7 is Db7. I swap or enharmonically spell the tri-tone, the B - F of G7 becomes F - B(Cb) of Db7. For most cases the complete collection of pitches is Dblydian b7 or AbMelodic min. The tri-tone sub for the new Db7 is G7 altered. Now has the #9 or b3 and b7. Anyway that's one method of using a sub of a sub with a method of organization which helps keep reference tonal center the same. You could also simply use Modal interchange and basically change the collection of pitches on any root. But without a method or concept for organization you need a very hip or well trained ear. Your on the path to awareness of chord subs. and chord pattern sub. But you need to be aware of implications... for example using E-7 for Cmaj7 is usually a function substitution....both usually tonic function. And then using Modal interchange ... E-7 becomes E7 and then tri-tone sub. or Bb7... etc... You would be mixing methods of using subs which is cool, but requires understanding of what your doing with reference to original and in live playing situations becomes complicated to hear.... there are many choices.
The Dbmaj is the sub of the related V 7 or G7 of D-7. Most dom7th chords can be preceded by related II-7 and also the other way around... Dom7th can follow most II-7's . And you can then use sub's of each. Which the Db is.
The Fmaj7 to Bb7 can be looked at a few ways, all going to C. would depend on which one your starting with... Fmaj7 could be function sub of D-7... both subdominant, or can be simple inversion like of D-7... I have to go but I'll get into It again... Best Reg

**exarctly** · 06-19-2011, 03:31 PM

Thanks Reg...
I either am on to something here...or I am not close. Generally I feel that I am using your concept to sort of play passing harmonies...sort of inside outside playing... I am not sure how yet to use it for substituting or if you mean that... for instance I am playing around the intended harmony with these chords you mention. Sort of like if the chord is Dm7 maybe resolving in and out from Dbmaj7 or other possible chords. Sort of like chromaticism with harmony?
I think I may have it wrong... What I would really appreciate is maybe like an 8 - 16 bar example from a tune in the Real Book that I could reference. Like if you just wrote some possible harmonies (I can look up the actual original ones) and then I could ask you questions about the why?
For instance...I saw someone on the forum take a Cmaj7 and suggest F#m7b5-B7 instead... I have no idea why... So...any examples would be appreciated... and thanks for your time. Sorry if I am a little slow.

**brwnhornet59** · 06-20-2011, 01:33 AM

[QUOTE=exarctly;151141]

One idea I like...tritone substitution, only with a Major 7th chord...
like Dm7 DbMaj7 CMaj7

I dig D-11, Db7b5, CMaj7.. Turn it around with A-7 or better yet DbDim. Using the G as a pedal. Reminds me of Evans. Or Jobim's, One note Samba.

Subbing DbMaj7b5 is nice too.

**Reg** · 06-20-2011, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by fep

So in Franks example the C6 is still C, the G-7 Gb7 is II subV of Fmaj. (the Gb is tri-tone sub of V of Fmaj.)
Bb7 could be bVII with related II- and Bdim could be passing chord, or F- could be Modal interchange with related V... and the Bdim is sub for G7b9... getting very close to modulation. When you mix sub concepts, it gets some what tricky, you lose one of the methods that hold usage together.... anyway the last part is a standard I VI II V with filler. The Db is usually Eb... but still used ... very deceptive Frank... cool.
Hey exarctly... pick a tune and we'll get into it... The Cma7, F#-7b5 B7 could be simply creating motion. The F#-7b5 B7 could be II V of E- which is Function sub of Cmaj, there both Tonic chords in key of C.
A few more points.... when your using subs you basically still have same tonal center or at least reference. When you start re-harmonizing, your changing that tonal center.
When you use tri-tone subs and change the type of chord, as with Dom7th to Maj7th your usually using Modal Interchange, which also says more that simple the actual chord change... your using a method which also implies a source with more references. Where that Maj7 is from.
Here's a re-harm of How Insensitive I posted a while ago... the tonal center is different. The 1st vid is tune and the 2nd is slower versionof changes

**exarctly** · 06-22-2011, 03:30 PM

Thanks Reg. I will watch those soon. Right now I can't.
But thinking about this the past few days. I think I really do not know much about substitution save for the whole tritone sub thing.
I think a lot of what I do is adding extra harmonies chromaticism and calculated dissonance. But that is not substitution so much as coloring or adding harmony. For instance...over a G chord, I may play a B triad because I know that it works in E harm minor or adds the augmented sound to the G. But that is not substitution. I also like passing chords, but I only know how to use other diatonic chords to get suspended type sounds (like Am over G) and maybe an occasional diminished chord...though I think more is possible with those than I realize.

Reharmonization seems like it is just taking the melody and trying different harmonic movement than the song originally intended. Anything that sounds good works, and you may or may not have reasons for your voice leading etc. Ever hear Jean Michel Pilc? I often wonder if he is simply playing changes over songs that he thinks would sound good.

Now substituting is different than reharm because the chords still have the same basic function that had... ie dominant tonic subdominant?

I am not attempting to explain it to you, so much as stating how I understand it in case I need to be corrected.

Take the example above where C turns into F#m B7...I get it...but it sounds nothing like the same function anymore to me.
If the video helps clarify then just let me watch it and ask my follow up questions.

But taking a tune I know well is a good idea...how about Here's that Rainy Day (though I tend to play it a little more like a Bossa than Ballad) Now I follow the changes in the real book which I have heard can occasionally be not the coolest accepted changes. But can you take a sequence from this song and show me some ideas of what might be played.

Also, to what extent can substitution be done. Can you do it with a band that you think will pick up on it and follow you. Does it sound good regardless because what you play is based around the original harmony...is it best suited for solo guitar arrangements etc.

I do not mean to be a pest, but I do want to learn more about all this, and I appreciate your insight and time.

Brian

**Reg** · 06-22-2011, 04:28 PM

Hey Brian...yea, your sounding good. There many ways and methods of chord substitution. The trick when using substitution when playing live is to be aware of what the different subs. imply. Functional subs have implied harmonic implications just as tri-tone subs and the many layers of their use imply. When we start to use methods of subs where there are choices or where the choices are not from the typical jazz vocab. you need to imply what or where your pulling from. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to be aware of the many methods of deriving subs etc... Basically any organized system or methodology which defines how the sub is derived can work, as long as the original tonal implications are still there. Some may disagree with me there, but that's how I see and hear it.
I'll try and post a video of me playing through Here's that rainy day and verbally explain as I use Subs, short sections at a time. There is also the overall tonal concept... gets a little tricky as what is stretching the ears as to what the tonal implications are... I'll stay down the middle.... Reg

**ESCC** · 06-22-2011, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Brian...yea, your sounding good. There many ways and methods of chord substitution. . .
. . . I'll try and post a video of me playing through Here's that rainy day and verbally explain as I use Subs, short sections at a time. There is also the overall tonal concept... gets a little tricky as what is stretching the ears as to what the tonal implications are... I'll stay down the middle.... Reg

Please do!

**fep** · 06-22-2011, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

So in Franks example ... The Db is usually Eb... but still used ... very deceptive Frank... cool.

Oops, I actually meant Eb9 not Db9. I think I'll go change that. Thanks Reg

**JonnyPac** · 07-06-2011, 10:31 PM

Here's my take on the issue... Great posts by the way.

This post might open up a can of worms. "Substitution" and "Reharmonization" are pretty vague in some contexts and tend to overlap, which is ok, I think they often get confused as to which is which and when each should be used appropriately. Mind you, my students are not always jazzers, so my two ideas here are defined in a more musically universal way.

Substitutions (IMHO) usually can be made without altering the original sheet music (or chart), and/or informing your fellow musicians if you are playing in a group setting. They are tasteful chord-scale alternatives that have a very high probability of fitting into the existing music without causing unwanted dissonances. Many substitutions are more or less the original chords with extra extensions or embellishments. Notes from the parent scales can be added or exchanged as long as no "avoid" aka “handle with care” notes are used, and as long as the new notes do not clash with any preexisting melodies or parts.

It is important to familiarize yourself with the harmonic foundations and limits of the musical genre at hand, and to use good judgment before making any substitutions. Some forms of music are far more restrictive than others. In jazz an F6 might get replaced with an Fmaj13#11/B and sound marvelous, whereas merely adding a major 7th to a G chord in a bluegrass tune might earn you some dirty looks from traditionalists.

Substitutions are frequently used in situations involving polychords. For instance, C Major Ninth has a complete E Minor Seventh chord within it. Cmaj9 is C E G B D, and Em7 is E G B D. In this case Em is the iii chord of C Major (the I chord). iii chords are common diatonic substitutions for I chords. If another musician completes the chord by adding the C bass note (Em7/C), C Major Ninth is the result. It ends up creating the same overall sound in many cases.

Here is an example chord progression:

|C |Am |F |G7 |C |
And now with some very basic diatonic embellishments and substitutions:
|Em7 |Am11 |Dm9 |G13 |C6/9 |

Reharmonizing usually requires writing out new sheet music (or a new chart), and/or informing your fellow musicians if you are playing in a group setting. They are rearrangements of the material that may be as drastic as a completely new chord progression with numerous “borrowed” chords and/or modulations. Often the original melody is the only thing that remains partially intact.

Oftentimes, diatonic chord-scales with one or more “Avoid” (though I dislike the term) notes get reharmonized with similar ones that have fewer restrictions. For example, A Minor (Aeolian) might get replaced by A Dorian, or A Melodic Minor. This can free up the chord-scale and add many more interesting possibilities.

Of course, some jazz and fusion players like to make reharmonizations on the spot to create outside sounds, or to challenge their fellow players to scramble and attempt to follow them. Unless the musicians are virtuosos, this approach has a very low probability of sounding good to the average listener.

Here is an example chord progression:

|Dm7 |G7 |Cmaj7 |Cmaj7 |
And now with some John Coltrane Giant Steps style reharmonizations:
|Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7|Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 |

If a soloist played one while the accompanist clearly played the other, things wouldn't really sound "good" until the final C chord. It would sound "outside" in a structured way I suppose, but it might result in making one or the other sound like they made a series of mistakes. They should both agree on which set of chords to perform if harmonic cohesion is desired.

I like to think of probabilities in music. If a chord, bass-line, and melody all come from the same source, then there is a very high probability that the spontaneous counterpoint/homophonic result will be favorable on a beat for beat basis; whereas if each improvising musician chooses a different route the music will resolve on a measure for measure basis (which is ok: consonance-dissonance-consonance aka inside-outside-inside).

I hope this helps give you some ideas...

One more note. In jazz, since there are so many borrowed chords and drastic tonal changes subbing a C with Am or Em makes almost no dent, whereas in pop/rock C Am Em might actually be the progression and reversing the process into four measures of C would ruin it... no progression! It's important to choose the appropriate amount of harmonic motion for the given performance/song.

**Reg** · 07-07-2011, 09:34 AM

Hey JP... what do Re-harms and subs relate to... when you use them what are you making reference to.... what are you re-harming or subing for?

**exarctly** · 07-07-2011, 05:11 PM

I read that post before, and I liked your point about context...

I was gonna make a topic about Coltrane type matrixes...

I have read up on 'em a few times. Even almost understand 'em... are they more for reharmonizing tunes or just out ideas of chords to superimpose oas a soloist, like sheets of sound...or was sheets of sound more playing super fast arpeggios and scales but still diatonic....

in any case I would love to hear more about why or how this works... Are Coltrane changes ideas just sort of playing things in thirds away that eventually resolve like in Giant Steps?

Dm7 |G7 |Cmaj7 |Cmaj7 |
And now with some John Coltrane Giant Steps style reharmonizations:
|Dm7 Eb7 |Abmaj7 B7|Emaj7 G7 |Cmaj7 |

**JonnyPac** · 07-07-2011, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by exarctly

Yup, just reverse engineer the changes to spit you out on the target chord. This can be done via Trane changes, 4ths, or tritone subs creating chromatic ii V7's, etc. You can write the tune, reharm, or superimpose the new harmony. I'm pretty conservative with some of this since I don't just play jazz.

**Reg** · 07-07-2011, 08:18 PM

Coltrane's subs are not technically re-harms. In their simplest concept... there a mechanical system of adding subs., usually based of a three tonic system or just root movement by Maj 3rds... depends on how or what your relating to. Chord substitution by cycle is a mechanical system... but still related to the same tonal center or reference point. As I've mentioned before... a re-harmonization has a different tonal center or reference point.
Many refer to tri-tone subs as interval cycle, Root motion source... tri-tone, aug. 4th or dim.5th... but tri-tone subs actual can have a different methodology... the enharmonic swap of the tri-tone, which can also be heard and understood as a functional sub. When we use this concept of deriving subs...when heard or understood from functional point of reference....(as opposed to mechanical system), we have different harmonic implications. Different methodology for controlling choices of pitch collections. I'm making no references to right or wrong... simply trying to make us aware of more answers to simple questions of harmonic choices to chordal or melodic implications.
What we call "out" of tonal center is therefor not simply a re-harmonization... as compared to a sub just because we can't hear or understand the chord or melodic material. That would be like calling the use of 7ths on triads a re-harm. I know... what 7th, for the sake of the discussion, lets say we agree on the choice of 7th. The entire concept becomes a little more complicated when modulation becomes involved... but not much.
Coltranes changes mix use of mechanical harmonic control with simple dominant function, to keep our ears happy. What usually make playing or feeling difficult is this mixture and also his use of harmonic rhythm(the strong weak pattern). Some view Coltrane's chordal patterns as an augmented cycles. Similar to bridge in Have You Meet Miss Jones.
I'm not trying to get complicated... but when you start to use diminished chords and Min. 3rds as patterns for subs. it can become very complicated... due to the fact that Dim chords have two tri-tones, which give us more harmonic functional sources for subs... besides the basic mechanical control methodology...
In the end... almost all systems of deriving a methodology for source of subs... have a reference point or tonal center. And again when I change that point of reference... I'm re-harmonizing.
Obviously some subs sound like re-harms., but that's usually because your not aware of the system or source of subs...
Many don't view the subject as I do... and that's cool, and I'm very open to discussion... If I can break it down more... please let me know. I need to make about a million videos... to cover what I've said I would.... but there's nothing like pressure to make us productive...
Best Reg

**sc06yl** · 07-14-2011, 06:27 PM

Context is pretty important.

I like using pedals and slash chords. You can also get some pretty cool ideas if you think with the melody in mind. Things don't have to be tricky...

I was just working on an arrangement of 'Starry Night' by Don Mclean (it came to my fingers the last time I sat at the piano), and played around, ended up with a cool idea for the 'night' part at the beginning (starry, starry night' its played as G chord (in my head, I haven't heard the tune in ages, just playing and it came out in that key), with a melody note B, I used a FMaj7#11, I suppose thats not all that out there, and its been done before, I am sure, AND I don't know how I'll voice it on the guitar yet...