Modes over chords

[thared33]

I've been getting into jazz theory lately. I recently bought Levine's book on jazz theory and he said something in it that caught my eyes. He said to play the dorian over a ii/m7 chord, the mixolydian over a V/dom7 chord, and the ionian over the I/M7 chord. Then he proceeds to say, "You might be asking yourself why can't I just play the major scale over all of those modes since they're all diatonic and in the same key? Good question".

Afterward he went on to explain 'avoid' notes, not really giving a thorough explanation or answer, so I wanted to ask that here. Playing the major scale over all of those seems like the same thing as playing the modes that go with the chords since they're the same notes, so why take the modal approach if it's the same thing?

The only reason i can think of is when the chord is a modified chord with an abnormal sharp or flat in it. But otherwise it seems like it can work both ways.

[mr. beaumont]

There's different notes to stress in different modes to really get their "flavor."

Along with that, there are certain notes to "avoid" or handle with care (read: don't hang on) on different chords...for example, in a ii V I in C, an F will sound great on the Dminor but not so great to hang on over the Cmaj7.

Honestly though, playing dorian, mixolydian, ionian over a ii V I is a lot of thinking and it really doesn't get you any of the really colorful notes, particularly on the V.

[Billnc]

I don't like avoid notes. I feel very strongly about this. I think one should be taught the 'works all the time notes' and gradually other tension tones added. Then approach to chord tone techniques.

It makes no sense to me personally to say "Over this play 7 notes, but avoid this one"

[docbop]

Even if you think in mode/chord you need to know the chord tones and as Mr B. said the essential notes that make the mode's sound. Also the Avoid note, which isn't really an note to avoid, but a note that requires special handling to use without clashing. Now if you thing in key centers you still have to pull the chord tones out of the scale when on that chord and know the avoid notes.

IMO all these things are learning tools that you go through at one point. Then all these things are part of your collective toolbox/knowledge you draw on.


One last comment on avoid notes, that I do believe is a valid thing to learn. "There are no wrong notes, just wrong articulation."

[oldane]

"There are no wrong notes, just wrong articulation."

On the slow 12 bar blues "Back at the Chicken Sack" on the Jimmy Smith album of the same name, Stanley Turrentine persistantly honks on the IV "avoid note" throuhout most of a full chorus. It's so deliberately wrong that it sounds - just right.

BTW, that take on the record is not technically perfect. Before the mentioned honking chorus, Turrentine accidently produces a monumental reed squeek. Kenny Burrel a little later starts his solo with what sounds like the bridge PU engaged, which seems to be an error, which he corrects a little into the solo. But the take is nevertheless wonderful - so full of "down home" blues groove.

[bass2man]

Thared33:

I really dislike the term "avoid" note..If you played a dorian mode to mixolydian mode to ionian mode you will have played all the notes in the key...which ones need to be avoided?

Playing the fourth on a major chord doesn't sound to good, but then again, playing the 3rd on a sus7 chord doesn't sound to good either...

As docbop said, "There are no wrong notes, just wrong articulation."...which to me at this point in my playing, means resolving lines correctly to chord tones or extensions on strong beats.

[JonnyPac]

This is related... Quoted from my blog. Sorry for those of you who have seen it before.

It is a common pitfall for students of chord-scale equivalency theories to give every note within a chord-scale equal treatment. There is a tonal hierarchy that must be recognized. The core triad needs to be thought of as the lower structure, the seventh as what I call the “gateway” tone, and the other chord-tones as “upper-structures” or “extensions”. Every note besides the core triad may be treated as a “tendency tone” (meaning a tone that is unstable and naturally tends to resolve either upward or downward to a more stable tone) depending on the immediate context. “Avoid” notes or “handle with care" notes are the most unstable tones within each chord-scale. Tonal hierarchies within each chord-scale can fluctuate depending on the harmonic conditions of the music at hand. Use your ear to determine the level of complexity that is appropriate.

My musical development has been tremendously influenced by chord scale theory (CST) though I never went to a music college whatsoever. I self-studied through books, articles, youtube, forums, private lessons/classes, and gigging. Levine’s The Jazz Theory Book was the gateway book for me back in 2000 when I was 19 years old and semi-interested in classic jazz.

I fell for the Levine-CST bag hook line and sinker. I spent years tracking down almost every recording in the footnotes, had a pianist friend play all of the “two hand” examples. And even went through Levine’s piano book to get piano-like voicings on the guitar.

Though, I liked Levine’s work, something always bothered me… a few things in fact. His neglect of the harmonic minor scale and exclusion of functional harmony (no mention of secondary dominants, melodic devices, guide tones, etc). At this point, I began to use CST in my own way based on my ear and what I was hearing in actual music (jazz and non-jazz alike). I naturally had a sense of the tonal hierarchies within a chord-scale. I heard the tonic, basic triad, guide tones, tendency tones, extensions, triadic upper-partials and so on. It never ended with the idiot-proof “play this over that, avoid that note” BS. That makes no musical sense and no one in classic jazz thought that way. I have turned away from Levine and found Bert Ligon’s books much better all around.

I don’t think throwing the baby out with the bath water is a good answer… Let’s turn to rock improvisation. I work in a guitar store (over 10 years experience, now a manager), and I have been teaching guitar lessons that long as well. It is typical for students (and some professionals) to ask “what scale do I play over that SONG”. They want one pentatonic, blues, or full diatonic scale that fits the entire progression, and then they want to noodle and shred from there. The idea of chord-scale pairing is beyond their wildest dreams, and a tonal hierarchy within each is out of the question. CST is a way to get lead guitarists (or other melodic instruments) to pay more attention to the underlying progression. A progression that “borrows” parallel chords via "modal interchange" (common in Beatles tunes, jazz, hip-hop, grunge etc), back-cycling (country western, rhythm changes, sweet Georgia brown, etc), secondary dominants (most "functional" progressions), makes the “one scale” idea is nearly impossible to pull off. Note that “harmonic generalization” is very different and melodically complex compared to "noodling" in one key.

There are huge pitfalls to CST as it is usually presented (CST without tonal hierarchies), yes, but I still feel like it is a great launching point (though tedious to grasp at first for those without exceptional patience and memorization capabilities). There are no true short-cuts, but going the long route without CST seems even harder and creatively limiting. I cannot imagine playing a Wayne Shorter tune or soloing over the changes to “Strawberry Fields” without it.

At this point I can solo over any oddball chord progression in a harmonically specific way that implies everything between the counterpoint of my part against the bass line (no chords needed). That’s where “linear harmony” comes in and fills the gaps of CST, and allows the rules to be broken (not “outside” mind you) in order to give the music direction; the elements of rhythm; especially “harmonic rhythm”. Chromatic notes, anticipations, and melodic devices make a lot of sense on this level. Again, this is miles away from the typical rock/pop guitarist’s one scale mentality. Thoroughgoing CST is very different than memorizing the dictionary!

[hot ford coupe]

I don't know about this. My opinion? There's too much thinking going on and not enough listening. When I try to do a lot of thinking, things just don't seem to turn out the way they should. Everything sounds like exercises and preconceived lines. I can generally think pretty fast but when I do all that thinking about which scale I have to play over what chord, by the time I figure out what to play, the music has moved on to something else. I learned something from a Barney Kessel VHS tape (yes Virginia, they still exist). He says to listen to a chord and savor it like a good food. Then, try to whistle or sing a 5-6 note melody that you hear in your head. Then try to play it on the guitar while singing it. Go to another chord and do the same thing. Add to that some ear training and burn into your memory the sounds of the different intervals. Then when you hear an interval coming out of your head through the singing, you can put your fingers down where they need to go. I think this might be what Charlie Parker meant when he said "Learn all the stuff and then forget about it". Then again, I play music from the '30's up to the cool period. I'm sure it's different when it comes to a lot more modern music. Just my opinion here. Please be gentle.

[Ron Stern]

I've only been at this a couple of years but Jonny Pac's observations seem more accurate, the more I learn and the more I play.

[thared33]

I think something was misconstrued here, but thanks for all of the replies and info that was given. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into one about avoid notes, because I do understand the dissonance about them when they're held against the triads that you're playing. And yes, I do agree that there really aren't any 'avoid' notes.

What I meant was, Levine mentioned, "Why can't I just play C major over all of these chord changes since Ddor Gmix Iion have the same notes as C Major?" and then went on to talk about avoid notes. However, I was trying to stress that he didn't really give a thorough explanation to the question, "Why can't I just play C major over all of these chord changes since Ddor Gmix Iion have the same notes as C Major?" and immediately skipped on to avoid notes.

That's what I was wondering about If they're all the same notes, why not just be familiar with one scale/mode and play it over all chord changes instead of thinking in terms of modes?

[oldane]

What I meant was, Levine mentioned, "Why can't I just play C major over all of these chord changes since Ddor Gmix Iion have the same notes as C Major?" and then went on to talk about avoid notes. However, I was trying to stress that he didn't really give a thorough explanation to the question, "Why can't I just play C major over all of these chord changes since Ddor Gmix Iion have the same notes as C Major?" and immediately skipped on to avoid notes.

As I view it, there are two distinct and rather different "paradigms" in jazz: Pre-modal and modal. Pre-modlal is everything before the advent of modal jazz - that is dixieland, swing, bebop, hard bop.

Levines book has been a tremendous help to me, putting it all together 15 years ago. But Levine is rooted in modal playing. The short version of it is, that in modal playing, you have a scale to play over each type of chord. However, it's a method which tends to view each chord isolated (though of course really good players don't do that). That method wasn't used in jazz before the advent of modal jazz. Before that, players indeed tended to build their playing on the scale of the tonic center (that is, the same scale on say a III-VI-II-V progression) - of course with alterations, extensions, passing chords, substitutions - and "avoid" notes - to spice things up (else it would be very boring). You can of course apply modal chord-scale method to standards like say Body and Soul, but besides complicating things more than really necessary, it IMHO would also be to miss the point of such a standard ballad somehow. To me, the point of a standard is to make an interesting, but yet logically flowing line with a good voice leading, not to run up and down the individual chords. To my ears, that often becomes a bit show off like, and I find it boring to listen to.

But of course, it's a matter of personal taste and preference. I'm firmly rooted in pre-modal jazz and as such outdated. Others may well beg to differ.

[thared33]

'Notes of gravity' is a perfect answer, thanks for the link. As a side note, at the end he says d minor, when I think he meant to say d Dorian

[brwnhornet59]

I look at modal architecture as the tour guide of a given chord. It shows you all the best places to be at a quick glance. However i do not get locked into playing specific modes solely. A mode to me is easily expressed using the parent key. But i work very hard to be aware of the placement of any triad at any given interval, regardless of where i am positioned in the playing of said scale. So i try and use the best of both worlds. If i had to depend strictly on a modal approach, i find it to become boring rather quickly. Any SINGLE approach, becomes boring. I love the color blue. But without the greens, red's, browns and grays as contrast, it become monotonous. I do use it very heavily when outlining chords with arp's. But i rarely play 1 3 5 arp's. I love sculpting textural lines with "flavor" notes included, as Mr Beaumont put it. So this is one of many of the tools that we use to color our pallet and create outside of ourselves. At least that is my point of view.

[Sharks]

Watch the whole thing, and perhaps part II if you dig it.

+1 Definitely dig it and part II. Running across several different modes using a single interval - great exercise! A simple concept that seems so practical - could be quite a bit of work for me though.

[jtizzle]

In the book, Levine quotes, uh, I think Parker, who said "Learn the changes, then forget them". Which is what you want to end up learning how to do. However, to do that, you need to go through this process.

I'll give you my own explanation of the use of Dorian, Mixolydian, and Ionian over a ii-V-I. I personally find it easier to think of tonic triads rather than thinking "chord based on the second degree of the C Major scale". So when I see D Dorian, I know the tonic triad is D F A, 7th is C, and so on. It's a bit faster than when someone asks you the ii chord of C. Of course, you'll probably get that easy since C is an easy scale (no sharps or flats). But what about when someone gives you a harder scale like B (with 5 sharps), then you kind of have to stop and think, and more if they ask you something about a degree in the scale. People with their theory engraved in their head won't have to think, and going through the process of learning the modes over chords is what really helps you internalize this. For the sake of simplicity, I'll keep using C major. So if you're a novice and soloing while looking at a lead sheet, you can see a Dm7 and right away play D dorian. Then you see a G7 and play G Mixolydian. Then you see a CM7 and play C ionian. Now look at what you just played, you played a ii-V-I in C major. If you would have played a C Major over Dm7, you would have started right, playing C (the 7th) on beat 1, a strong beat, but if you keep going you're gonna accent some notes that don't really match up with the chord and aren't consonant. Dissonance is by no means playing wrongly, but if you play too much of it, it sounds like you don't know what you're doing, and to show that you need to resolve the notes on strong beats so it's more noticeable.
Here's the thing, when you internalize this process is when you do what Parker said "learn the changes then forget them". Think of the ii-V-I in C. After playing a lot of ii-V-I's in C, you learn what they all look like, and you know that you can just play C major over it. Since you've used Dorian, Mixolydian, and Ionian so much, you know that you can simply play C major but also know what notes to start on (chord tones, use the "avoid" tones in between or even to create dissonance that you will eventually resolve).

For guitarists, the modes are also something VERY important. The guitar is, in my opinion, the most position-accessible instrument. Horn players don't even have positions. Bass players (specifically upright) need to find their notes and intonate them so if the bass is slightly out of tune they need to find the note in a new place (even if it's just a cm behind where it would be in tune), and even then, it's too big of an instrument to maintain one position. The piano has great visibility, but it's not position accessible, since you don't have 2+ octaves of notes without having to shift your hand forward. So here's something I learned some time ago.
Over Dm7, you can play D dorian, but you can also play F Lydian, A aeolian, or C ionian (more limited). Why is that? well think about it. D F A C spells out a Dm7 chord, and they're all tonic notes of their corresponding mode I mentioned. Play each scale over the Dm7 chord, 8th notes. If you have one measure of Dm7, you play D E F G A B C. D F A C land on beats 1, 2, 3, and 4, all strong beats. Now play F Lydian, F G A B C D E. F A C land on beats 1, 2, and 3, also strong beats. If you want the D to land on beat 4, you can simply create a chromatic passing C#, place it on the and of 3 and D will be on 4. Same case for A aeolian, think of what beats the chord tones will be on and make them get to the strong beats. C Major is different because only one chord tone will be on the strong beat (1), so you have to create a lot of chromaticism to get the chord tones to land on strong beats.
Now, where am I getting with this you ask? Well, say you're playing in second position on your guitar. You want to play a D dorian. Why not learn the A aeolian instead? By playing A aeolian, you learn the entire D dorian scale in the second position, extend it to lower and higher pitches, and you're starting on a scale that's basically consonant with Dm7 (starts on a chord tone). So you learn the D dorian in the entire position. Same thing with G7. You can play G mixolydian, B locrian, D dorian, F lydian. Or for CM7, C ionian, E phrygian, G mixolydian, or B locrian.

By learning all these modes, you eventually discard all the names except for the one you can extend all throughout the position. So if you're playing C major in second position, you can really discard all of the modes except for G mixolydian. With minimum shifting of the fingers (once for the last two strings when you play it ascending) you can play the entire C major key with the lowest note in that position and the highest note in the position (respectively, G and A). But to get to this step of discarding the other modes, you need to "learn the changes" so you know that when you see Dm7, G7, and CM7 you KNOW (KNOW as in NO thinking time whatsoever) it's a ii-V-I in C Major.

It's funny, cause when you get to this step, you have to get back to the steps of going to the scales related to the chords, however, this time you're thinking of more advanced scales. For example, when you learn your Mixolydian, and can apply it to the changes, then you go back to the previous step and you can substitute the Mixolydian with it's tritone sub (so instead of playing G mixolydian over G7, you can maybe try playing C# Mixolydian) or maybe go ahead and substitute it with the diminished scale. The minor chords and major chords also have their own substitutes, but I can't help you with that because that's as far as I've got, haha .

I know it's long, but I hope this might have helped. If there's a mistake here please correct me

[brwnhornet59]

Knowing the modes in all of their positions is a must if you want to be able to utilize them to their fullest potential. But once that is done, you can shift modes very easily by picking from the first seven notes in front or behind you, regardless of the neck position you are on. That being said, pick a mode and you are ready to go.

[whatswisdom]

You might find this useful to memorize. I've been playing through it in all positions. It has helped me a lot.

0 - DFAC > GBDF > CEGB

b - GBbDF > CEGBb > FACE

bb - CEbGBb > FACEb > BbDFA

bbb - FAbCEb > BbDFAb > EbGBbD

bbbb - BbDbFAb > EbGBbDb > AbCEbG

bbbbb - EbGbBbF > AbCEbGb > DbFAbC

bbbbbb - AbCbEbGb > DbFAbCb > GbBbDbF

bbbbbbb - DbFbAbCb > GbBbDbFb > CbEbGbBb

####### - D#F#A#C# > G#B#D#F# > C#E#G#B#

###### - G#BD#F# > C#E#G#B > F#A#C#E#

##### - C#EG#B > F#A#C#E > BD#F#A#

#### - F#AC#E > BD#F#A > EG#BD#

### - BDF#A > EG#BD > AC#EG#

## - EGBD > AC#EG > DF#AC#

# - ACEG > DF#AC > GBDF#

[pierre richard]

I have my students play (before the theory) between the "cs"..between the "es" and between the "gs"...advanced students will know what this is and where it goes...

Applied technique before theory I have taught for years...getting to play something first is what I teach...then after playing for some time I introduce the theory behind it...

Time on the instrument...pierre

[wagx3]

You might find this useful to memorize. I've been playing through it in all positions. It has helped me a lot.

0 - DFAC > GBDF > CEGB

b - GBbDF > CEGBb > FACE

bb - CEbGBb > FACEb > BbDFA

bbb - FAbCEb > BbDFAb > EbGBbD

bbbb - BbDbFAb > EbGBbDb > AbCEbG

bbbbb - EbGbBbF > AbCEbGb > DbFAbC

bbbbbb - AbCbEbGb > DbFAbCb > GbBbDbF

bbbbbbb - DbFbAbCb > GbBbDbFb > CbEbGbBb

####### - D#F#A#C# > G#B#D#F# > C#E#G#B#

###### - G#BD#F# > C#E#G#B > F#A#C#E#

##### - C#EG#B > F#A#C#E > BD#F#A#

#### - F#AC#E > BD#F#A > EG#BD#

### - BDF#A > EG#BD > AC#EG#

## - EGBD > AC#EG > DF#AC#

# - ACEG > DF#AC > GBDF#

what exactly is this?

[brwnhornet59]

It is a reverse circle of fifths built off of ii V I. It is actually a circle of fourths.

It's fun to play in tritone circles as well. Just go to the tritone of stated key and away ya go!

[jtizzle]

what exactly is this?

ii-V-I Arpeggios in all keys.

[whatswisdom]

what exactly is this?

This is a chart I made up to help me memorize the most common chord progression in jazz. I also put each one on an index card and carried the cards around until I had 'em down cold. I recommend playing them as arpeggios all over the fingerboard with eyes closed. This is hard (even scary) at first. Do it with eyes open for a while, then give it a shot. Naming and singing each note is very helpful too. By the way, having reviewed my chart I have spotted ONE (typo) ERROR. CAN YOU FIND IT?
Quote:
0 - DFAC > GBDF > CEGB

b - GBbDF > CEGBb > FACE

bb - CEbGBb > FACEb > BbDFA

bbb - FAbCEb > BbDFAb > EbGBbD

bbbb - BbDbFAb > EbGBbDb > AbCEbG

bbbbb - EbGbBbF > AbCEbGb > DbFAbC

bbbbbb - AbCbEbGb > DbFAbCb > GbBbDbF

bbbbbbb - DbFbAbCb > GbBbDbFb > CbEbGbBb

####### - D#F#A#C# > G#B#D#F# > C#E#G#B#

###### - G#BD#F# > C#E#G#B > F#A#C#E#

##### - C#EG#B > F#A#C#E > BD#F#A#

#### - F#AC#E > BD#F#A > EG#BD#

### - BDF#A > EG#BD > AC#EG#

## - EGBD > AC#EG > DF#AC#

# - ACEG > DF#AC > GBDF#

[Reg]

We already play modal music... were use to playing or hearing in Ionian, with all it's tendencies... Blues are a form of modal music... it has it's own set of tendencies... Modal playing or hearing is simply having a different tonal center with different general Rules. There are a few different methods of understanding... but basically Modal harmonic and melodic concepts are...
Each Mode has it's own set of rules, your no longer following traditional harmonic practice. Depending on what mode you choose, there all a little different because what controls the harmonic tendencies are how you use the characteristic note of each mode. for example;
Dorian's characteristic pitch is the Maj. 6th degree. In D dorian that would be scale degree 6 or "B". Typically in modal music there is only one tonic chord... the I chord, in our example, D-, this is the center of our new musical world. The rest of the chords built on each scale degree either have or don't have the characteristic pitch. The chords with the pitch tend to want to go back to the tonic chord or to chords with out the pitch. Typically Chords with tri-tones are avoided or used carefully, they tend to push our ears back into the Ionian mode... typical Dominant function, with typical resolutions and voice leading. Anyway the next mode would be Phrygian with it's characteristic pitch of b2 or b9. A simple way to figure out what a characteristic pitch is... what note is different when compared to similar scale standard. Ionian being the standard for Major and Aeolian for minor.
Listen to 50s and 60' chord voicing in 4ths... they helped our ears get away from typical harmonic functions... which helps with use of dominant chords. Think of modal harmony as you would serial or 12 tone music... a different organizational system of controlling Melodic and Harmonic functions... But much closer to our traditional system. And as I've said before modal music as with most organizational systems in Jazz are far from the word of God. There simply ideas and the development of that idea by actual playing and composing... Reg

[Androo]

+1 Definitely dig it and part II. Running across several different modes using a single interval - great exercise! A simple concept that seems so practical - could be quite a bit of work for me though.

Ditto. I get a lot out of simple ideas. Cool post. Thank you!