Chord barring question

[ten left thumbs]

I have terrible trouble barring at around the 12th fret. It's because my finger is square on the fretboard at it's softest, most knobbly aspect, and no matter how hard I press, no matter how close behind the fret I am, some strings just nestle into a joint happily mute themselves. How do others get round this problem?

[Greco]

...... no matter how hard I press, no matter how close behind the fret I am, some strings just nestle into a joint happily mute themselves. How do others get round this problem?

I'll be following this thread with interest...the same thing happens to me.

Cheers

Dave

[czardas]

One thing that may sound obvious, but also confusing at first, is that you only need to exert pressure at certain points along the bar. So if the other fingers are being used on the inner striings, then the bar does not need to pressing on those particular strings.

Now comes the tricky part: how to exert pressure when and where needed. I practice shifting the point where I exert the pressure from the bass to the treble strings and back, playing each string with the right hand as I go. Repeating this rocking motion (shifting the pressure from string to string) on several frets is a good exercise and teaches you how much pressure is actually needed to hold the bar. It's generally not so much.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Everybody's fingers are different. You need to have a teacher look at what you're doing with your finger. Have you tried rolling slightly on the side of your finger?

Seriously, have someone look at what you're doing, and look at what they're doing. What czardis is talking about is a good point too. You rarely have all 6 strings in a barre chord ring from that barred finger.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The third pic here shows an exaggerated version (for illustration) of the rolling I was talking about.

Barre Chords Video Lesson at Guitar Masterclass

Good luck.

[ten left thumbs]

Thankyou for all replies to my question.

The chords I am working on just now are shells on the 5th string. I just worked out I can bar it fine if I put my fingertip on the 5th string (leaving the 6th string alone). This means my finger joint coincides with the edge of the fretboard, so it is easy to angle pressure on all 5 strings. This also makes barring a lot less fatiguing, as I don't need much pressure at all.

[czardas]

Perhaps the standard approach may be different for teaching the electric guitar, but I do not play the bar in the way described in the above tutorial (See points 2 and 3 in the quotes below). Some of you may choose to disagree with me, but I will give my reasons.

2. In order to get strength from the "barring" index finger - it is important to let the tip of the finger go pass the "fretboard edge".

Although the neck is wider on a classical guitar, the tip of the index finger is often needed, for example on the sixth string. Therefore I avoid letting the tip of the index finger protrude beyond the fretboard when playing a bar. This facilitates faster placement or removal of the bar as and when required.

3. Also, you don't want the "flat side" of the index finger to be paralell to the fretboard. In order to produce an even pressure on all six strings - rotate your finger.

The more you rotate this way, the harder it is to land with the other fingers at right angles to the fretboard (which is the most energy efficient). This rotation also has the undesirable drawback of limiting the stretch capabilities of the little finger. The whole hand shape tends to lean over.

For me, the most important thing is to keep the bar finger close behind the fret, and not to exert pressure where it is not needed.

Edit

No disrespect intended to matt.guitar or the author of the tutorial. There will always be some differences to hand shapes and the lengths of different people's fingers. Obviously there are also differences in the type of guitar being played. I just wanted to share my perspective on this. I also used to roll my finger like this when I played a steel string many years ago. I have changed the way I do it since then.

[ten left thumbs]

My impression was that the tutorial was intended as an introduction for a player first encountering the F chord. Probably would have helped me when I first tried that one! I think it's really difficult to give any kind of technical advice that will help 100% of people in 100% of learning situations. Ideally we would all have a teacher with us all the time. But I have got used to trying to figure out myself how best to achieve something, having read up, and taken advice from places like this.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The more you rotate this way, the harder it is to land with the other fingers at right angles to the fretboard (which is the most energy efficient). This rotation also has the undesirable drawback of limiting the stretch capabilities of the little finger. The whole hand shape tends to lean over.

For me, the most important thing is to keep the bar finger close behind the fret, and not to exert pressure where it is not needed.

That's why I said a "slight roll". Definitely don't do what's indicated in the 3rd photograph. It's purposefully exagerated.

I was really just referencing that one picture since it sounded like he didn't have someone to show him. I'm not really endorsing the tutorial. I don't do the thing he's talking about in terms of the tip of the finger. I think there are a lot of other factors to consider in that regard, such as how long your fingers are, what chord you're playing, and whether or not you might want to mute the 6th string etc.

Keep in mind that your hand and knuckles aren't perfectly flat. If you place all four fingertips on the fretboard in a relaxed, natural way, the 1st and 4th fingers angle outward slightly. Keep some of this natural angle on the first finger when playing the barre. It more effectively executes the barre. Also, it actually creates tension if you try to keep it from having any of this angle. When you're used to it, it actually feels very natural.

Scott Tennant and Christopher Parkening have excellent illustrations of this in the front of their books.

[czardas]

That's why I said a "slight roll". Definitely don't do what's indicated in the 3rd photograph. It's purposefully exagerated.

I was really just referencing that one picture since it sounded like he didn't have someone to show him. I'm not really endorsing the tutorial. I don't do the thing he's talking about in terms of the tip of the finger. I think there are a lot of other factors to consider in that regard, such as how long your fingers are, what chord you're playing, and whether or not you might want to mute the 6th string etc.

Keep in mind that your hand and knuckles aren't perfectly flat. If you place all four fingertips on the fretboard in a relaxed, natural way, the 1st and 4th fingers angle outward slightly. Keep some of this natural angle on the first finger when playing the barre. It more effectively executes the barre. Also, it actually creates tension if you try to keep it from having any of this angle. When you're used to it, it actually feels very natural.

Scott Tennant and Christopher Parkening have excellent illustrations of this in the front of their books.

Yeah, I agree that it can cause tension if you fight against the natural tendancy the finger has to want to roll. There is no such thing as a perfect guitarist's hand. We are all different. The way the fingers angle outward, as shown in the last photo is annoying. I try to encourage my left hand fingers to stand up and be counted like proper soldiers, but they don't always pay attention.

There will always be some variation depending on different factors.

[Greco]

Many thanks for all the helpful information.

Cheers

Dave

[czardas]

It's useful to hear different people's opinions about something like this. There are many great players who resolve things in their own way. matt.guitarteacher raised some valid points about hand tension and the natural tendancy of the fingers to align themselves in a certain way.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

This is kind of a dumbass answer because it says nothing about technique, but I've found that a lot of stuff that doesn't work for me at first ends up working great after I've practiced it for days or weeks. This is true, for example, of difficult fingering sequences. With fingering, sometimes you have to spend some time trying different sequences of fingers until you hit one that works for you.

Maybe the same thing will happen with your barring problem. Try wiggling your hand into different positions and see if you come to something that works better than what you've been doing.

(Or maybe you've already done this.)

[mr. beaumont]

Richard,

Maybe it sounds silly, but it's almost always true.

Plus, I like having the attitude of "if there's something I can't yet do on the guitar, it's just because I haven't done it enough yet."

[czardas]

This is kind of a dumbass answer because it says nothing about technique, but I've found that a lot of stuff that doesn't work for me at first ends up working great after I've practiced it for days or weeks.

So soon. LMAO

[Kojo27]

Have you tried placing the barre finger precisely ON the fret wire? This kooky thing worked for me on a particularly difficult barre chord, and I've used it some since. Worth a shot, maybe.

Also, remember the old trick of using your middle finger, clamped down strong on top of the first finger, for double strength. Obviously, this works only for chords where you need just the ring finger and/or pinky for the rest of the chord (a 1st position F minor, for example).

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

So soon. LMAO

At my age, weeks is pretty fast.

[ten left thumbs]

At my age, weeks is pretty fast.

Me too.

Time always helps, but sometimes you do need a clue which direction to be heading in.

[ten left thumbs]

Have you tried placing the barre finger precisely ON the fret wire? This kooky thing worked for me on a particularly difficult barre chord, and I've used it some since. Worth a shot, maybe.

Also, remember the old trick of using your middle finger, clamped down strong on top of the first finger, for double strength. Obviously, this works only for chords where you need just the ring finger and/or pinky for the rest of the chord (a 1st position F minor, for example).

On the fret? I've not had good results from this. Only bad tone.

Thanks everyone for the ideas, but the solution came while ago (as I said somewhere further up). If I just focus on barring the 5 strings, the problem is solved. Now my only problem is fatigue.

Will probably be back next week with the 6th string chords question...