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In traditional voice leading the seventh should be dealt carefuly,
and must be stepped in by either a prime or a second down, and also resolve by a prime or a second down.
You can see it clearly applying to the voice leading of 2-5-1, but what should we do where it's not possible?
How would you voice lead things like
Imaj7 - VI7
or
Imaj7-bVI7
in a traditional voice leading? With proper seventh prepare and solution. Not preceed from below, and not resolve to above.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-20-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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04-20-2011 04:06 PM
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I expect I'm missing the point as usual, but why do you want to approach from below? You'd have to have a fourth of some kind in the I chord, and in the little I understand of traditional voice leading that would have to resolve down to the third. Again, unless I'm missing the point, the easiest way to get to the seventh of the VI is the fifth of the I chord standing still, for the VI, or dropping a semitone, for the bVI - starting from a root position closed voicing that could be
Originally Posted by hed_b94
C E G B - A E G C or
C E G B - Ab Eb Gb Cb
or from an open one, it could be
C G E B - A G E C
C G E B - Ab Gb Eb Cb
Is there something wrong with this that I'm not seeing?
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You do miss it, but it's my mistake. I want NOT TO approach it from below. The title is problematic, and I didn't really refer to it in the text itself. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Also, I'm talking about dominants. I learned that VI means major and vi minor, but I guess it's not universal.
Problems with your voice leading:
B -> C#
The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
B->C
Same thing
And as for the reason for it:
Well, seventh is not a stable note, and that voice leading 'limit' is needed for the note not to be stressed.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-20-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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With common tones and minimal motion.
C G B E---C# G A E
E B C G---E A C# G
G C E B---G C# E A
B E G C---A E G C#
C G B E---C Gb Ab Eb
E B C G---Eb Ab C Gb
G C E B---Gb C Eb Ab
B E G C---Ab Eb Gb C
If you want to avoid B-Ab you can use Cma6 A-Ab
I'm not sure I understand your question and what you are seeking to figure out and therefore I'm only guessing.Last edited by bako; 04-22-2011 at 08:00 AM. Reason: spelling
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No, it isn't, and lots of jazz people prefer not to make the distinction (young Reg, for example, on the grounds that major/minor frontiers are fuzzy in jazz), which is why I misunderstood. So, OK, you're talking about a VI7 as a dominant 7, A7 in C. And your concern is what to do with the seventh of the I, not how to get to the seventh of the VI as per the thread title, or am I still not on your wavelength? Originally Posted by hed_b94
??Problems with your voice leading:
B -> C#
The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
I don't get this. Why? A major seventh of a tonic doesn't particularly have to resolve in jazz, as far as I know, it's generally a 'colour' note. If it does resolve, it's usually up to C, the semitone pull. If you have the choice between two whole-tone movements, or larger ones, up or down, what difference does it make?
I'm afraid I totally don't understand that. Again, I expect I'm being dim, as usual....and that voice leading 'limit' is needed for the note [seventh?] not to be stressed.
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In my bach-style chorales study I've learned that 7th of a chord musn't be stepped in from below ( or preceed with any kind of leap), because it makes it more dominant, too dominant for that style. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
The seventh may resolve to C only if the chord stays C, I think. Otherwise it need careful attention, but in jazz I guess it's ok.
Im askign this because someone told me that the voice leading in jazz is actually pretty similar. Probably didn't meant THAT similar
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Doesn't that refer to minor sevenths rather than major? Offhand, I don't remember there being such a thing as a major seventh in Bach chorales - if he were to use the major seventh, it would be as an ornament, not really a chord note (though I wouldn't want to exaggerate my paltry understanding of this particular subject, there are others much more knowledgeable here). In any case, there's nothing dominant about a major seventh, on the contrary, it shouts "I belong to a 'tonic' or 'subdominant', or whatever, not a dominant" The minor seventh feels dominant because it wants to resolve to the third of the next chord, the major seventh doesn't have that feel to it. Originally Posted by hed_b94
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Hmm.. not exactly, the seventh chords can be independent, but the 7th act as a non-chord tone. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Imaj7 is pretty rare, but do exist.
I meant dominant as 'stonger', and not as the function.
And I disagree, the seventh shouts "I'm a leading tone"
Also, careful preparation is needed in any seventh chord. (Well, I just read in my harmony book that there is one expception, but it's not the major7)
The chord also need to resolve properly, but if it resolves to the same chord it's ok. So yeah, the B can go to C, but only if the progression is Cmaj7-C.
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I don't understand that, though I do seem to be being particularly dense about this, so it's probably me, not you. If the major 7th is not a chord tone - and in Bach it isn't - you aren't looking at a Imaj7, but a I with a major 7th doing something or other in the melody. Originally Posted by hed_b94
Oh Lord, one minute you mean one thing, the next something else. Be kind, I'm fragile today.I meant dominant as 'stonger', and not as the function.
Not that I can see. If it's a seventh chord, the seventh is an arpeggio note. But of course if it isn't a seventh chord and you want to introduce the seventh in the melody, you have to do it properly.careful preparation is needed in any seventh chord.
We're confusing things, I think (even more). Of course the major seventh is the leading tone, but when it's a harmony note, it's usually part of another chord, usually V7, not I, in which case it isn't the major seventh of that chord, it's the third. When the melody runs up e.g., G A B C, all over a chord of C, the B is not a chord tone, it ¡s a passing tone. Where you get, e.g., a sustained B followed by C in Bach and the like, that isn't a major seventh either, it's a kind of upside-down suspension (there's a technical term I've forgotten), the B really belongs to the previous chord, probably G7. I'm not saying your Cmaj7-C doesn't happen, but yourAnd I disagree, the seventh shouts "I'm a leading tone"... The chord also need to resolve properly, but if it resolves to the same chord it's ok. So yeah, the B can go to C, but only if the progression is Cmaj7-C.
doesn't apply. In short, unless I still misunderstand, you seem to be wanting to do the impossible, resolve this B as both major seventh and as the leading note, in which case I'd say it would be better to decide, pick one, not both.The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
Or you could start again - what is the actual difficulty with your Imaj7-VI7 progression, in words I can understand on the extremely slow day I seem to be having?
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Often times the traditional voice leading rules seem to be contradicting each other, but they reall don't. The B wants to resolve to C only if the next chord is C. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
There is something impossible, but not the thing you are referring to. As I said, the seventh of the chord should resolve down, UNLESS the next chord is the same one. So if we have Cmaj7->Dmin7
The B DOESN'T go to C. It should go to A.
If we have a Cmaj7 -> C
The B DOES go to C. it solves at the tonic, so C is the right place for it.
Now this creates a problem in voice leadings things like Imaj7-bVI7dom
Because:
C -E - G - B -> Ab - Eb - Gb - C --------- B resolves to C, but not as tonic, so it's not good.
If we make the Ab a incomplete dominant (doubled root insted of fifth) we might get
C E G B -> Ab -C - G -Ab
Now here the B resolves down, but by an augmented second.
Which creates an impossible situation where you can't voice lead the progression.
But after some thought I guess that in order to do it traditionaly you a)doesn't voice lead 2 seventh chords in a row
b) use passing tone to solve the voice leading problems
and another solution for our jazz playing is to just ignore those rules, as they really don't matter in a world where maj7 is no longer considered dissonant.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-22-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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Edited due to bad reading comprehension on my part, asking a question already answered.
I don't know how to delete in total.Last edited by bako; 04-22-2011 at 08:22 AM.
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edit: Ok. You noticed it, thank you. Originally Posted by bako
But- bako's idea of inversion is another option. There are some debates over the German six chord (which is enharmonicly the same as bVIdom7) and his root.
There is no consensus, so I can do this:
C E G B -> D# C F# Ab = Eb C Gb Ab
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C E G B---C Eb Gb Bb---C Eb Gb Ab
Using Bb as a passing note softens the aug. 2nd
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Yes, that would be called appogiatura. Originally Posted by bako
I think inversions are the better solution for jazz voice leading, since it can be a drag to always play passing tone when you have that movement.
Now for the Imaj7- VIdom7 the solution can be the same.
since A7 in C major is a secondary dominant that resolves to some kind of D,
we can do in first inversion to create nice chromatic bass-line.
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Aren't you making that inevitable by going to a flat sixth instead of an ordinary sixth of whatever kind? You could, for example, do Imaj7-vi7 simply enough by going from root position to first inversion: Originally Posted by hed_b94
C E G B - C E G A
Sharpen the C and it's VI7 you wanted. Then flatten everything and its your bVI7. Yes, B-Ab is an augmented second, it's hard to see how could it be anything else - there is no closer note available. Does it matter? It's still a stepwise movement, the number of semitones is irrelevant.
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What I don't yet follow is what is your relationship to these rules regarding jazz.
Why do they matter? They are not the only path to voice leading that sounds good.
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This is something debatable, but I think you have a point. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
First of I will say that I never heard of any rule regarding aug. second, but I do think it's not something to just be ignored, it DOES matter.
Also, I think that as long as the movement is right, it will sound 'ok', even if it was an actual minor 3rd.
As for the reason of this rule:
First of all, you should see that in basic 2-5-1 the same thing applies.
It does create a different sound, perhaps smoother and more gentle voice leading. of course we shouldn't limit ourselvs to this rule, but rather use it as a tool, just like when I use rules regarding doublings and voice leading as a tool when composing Bach-style Chorale.
What I'm saying is that sometimes I would want to do it, and sometime I would want to avoid doing it. Same thing applies for parallel fifth in my opinion.
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I meant it didn't matter in terms of solving this exercise - even if augmented, it's still a second, a step. OK, it matters, in the sense that you want control of your arrangements and you want to know what they're going to sound like without hammering them out on the keyboard. But you have created the problem by setting yourself an exercise which has an anachronistic (I would have thought, I could be wrong) chord sequence, you can't expect to solve it without something else anachronistic happening. I mean, if you're going to have non-Bach chords, couldn't you make that second chord a bVI7#9, omitting something in order to maintain the four parts? Then you could resolve your major seventh by having it stand still and become the #9. Originally Posted by hed_b94
Parallel fifths have lost much of their awesomeness since heavy metal came along - nowadays, they're more likely to sound like power chords than Gregorian chant.sometimes I would want to do it, and sometime I would want to avoid doing it. Same thing applies for parallel fifth in my opinion.
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Well, since I don't like power chords, I try to avoid parallel fifths mostly.
In jazz it's much easier, I don't play the fifth of the chord many times, and almost never double the root.
You suggested another solution (which I will try, I think it's a good option), but this question has a two-ways interest for me. Firstly, I like smooth voice leading in my jazz playing.
But secondly, and just as important, I wonder how classical composers would solve these problems.
#9 probably isn't one of the classical solutions, especially if we're talking about a German chord which should go to the V of the original scale.
I'm going to ask my friend who studied classical harmony and composition at university level about this matter in a few days when we'll meet.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-22-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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