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In traditional voice leading the seventh should be dealt carefuly,
and must be stepped in by either a prime or a second down, and also resolve by a prime or a second down.
You can see it clearly applying to the voice leading of 2-5-1, but what should we do where it's not possible?
How would you voice lead things like
Imaj7 - VI7
or
Imaj7-bVI7
in a traditional voice leading? With proper seventh prepare and solution. Not preceed from below, and not resolve to above.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-20-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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04-20-2011 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
C E G B - A E G C or
C E G B - Ab Eb Gb Cb
or from an open one, it could be
C G E B - A G E C
C G E B - Ab Gb Eb Cb
Is there something wrong with this that I'm not seeing?
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Also, I'm talking about dominants. I learned that VI means major and vi minor, but I guess it's not universal.
Problems with your voice leading:
B -> C#
The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
B->C
Same thing
And as for the reason for it:
Well, seventh is not a stable note, and that voice leading 'limit' is needed for the note not to be stressed.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-20-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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With common tones and minimal motion.
C G B E---C# G A E
E B C G---E A C# G
G C E B---G C# E A
B E G C---A E G C#
C G B E---C Gb Ab Eb
E B C G---Eb Ab C Gb
G C E B---Gb C Eb Ab
B E G C---Ab Eb Gb C
If you want to avoid B-Ab you can use Cma6 A-Ab
I'm not sure I understand your question and what you are seeking to figure out and therefore I'm only guessing.Last edited by bako; 04-22-2011 at 08:00 AM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
Problems with your voice leading:
B -> C#
The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
I don't get this. Why? A major seventh of a tonic doesn't particularly have to resolve in jazz, as far as I know, it's generally a 'colour' note. If it does resolve, it's usually up to C, the semitone pull. If you have the choice between two whole-tone movements, or larger ones, up or down, what difference does it make?
...and that voice leading 'limit' is needed for the note [seventh?] not to be stressed.
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
The seventh may resolve to C only if the chord stays C, I think. Otherwise it need careful attention, but in jazz I guess it's ok.
Im askign this because someone told me that the voice leading in jazz is actually pretty similar. Probably didn't meant THAT similar
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Imaj7 is pretty rare, but do exist.
I meant dominant as 'stonger', and not as the function.
And I disagree, the seventh shouts "I'm a leading tone"
Also, careful preparation is needed in any seventh chord. (Well, I just read in my harmony book that there is one expception, but it's not the major7)
The chord also need to resolve properly, but if it resolves to the same chord it's ok. So yeah, the B can go to C, but only if the progression is Cmaj7-C.
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
I meant dominant as 'stonger', and not as the function.
careful preparation is needed in any seventh chord.
And I disagree, the seventh shouts "I'm a leading tone"... The chord also need to resolve properly, but if it resolves to the same chord it's ok. So yeah, the B can go to C, but only if the progression is Cmaj7-C.
The seventh (B) should resolve by stepping down.
Or you could start again - what is the actual difficulty with your Imaj7-VI7 progression, in words I can understand on the extremely slow day I seem to be having?
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
There is something impossible, but not the thing you are referring to. As I said, the seventh of the chord should resolve down, UNLESS the next chord is the same one. So if we have Cmaj7->Dmin7
The B DOESN'T go to C. It should go to A.
If we have a Cmaj7 -> C
The B DOES go to C. it solves at the tonic, so C is the right place for it.
Now this creates a problem in voice leadings things like Imaj7-bVI7dom
Because:
C -E - G - B -> Ab - Eb - Gb - C --------- B resolves to C, but not as tonic, so it's not good.
If we make the Ab a incomplete dominant (doubled root insted of fifth) we might get
C E G B -> Ab -C - G -Ab
Now here the B resolves down, but by an augmented second.
Which creates an impossible situation where you can't voice lead the progression.
But after some thought I guess that in order to do it traditionaly you a)doesn't voice lead 2 seventh chords in a row
b) use passing tone to solve the voice leading problems
and another solution for our jazz playing is to just ignore those rules, as they really don't matter in a world where maj7 is no longer considered dissonant.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-22-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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Edited due to bad reading comprehension on my part, asking a question already answered.
I don't know how to delete in total.Last edited by bako; 04-22-2011 at 08:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by bako
But- bako's idea of inversion is another option. There are some debates over the German six chord (which is enharmonicly the same as bVIdom7) and his root.
There is no consensus, so I can do this:
C E G B -> D# C F# Ab = Eb C Gb Ab
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C E G B---C Eb Gb Bb---C Eb Gb Ab
Using Bb as a passing note softens the aug. 2nd
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Originally Posted by bako
I think inversions are the better solution for jazz voice leading, since it can be a drag to always play passing tone when you have that movement.
Now for the Imaj7- VIdom7 the solution can be the same.
since A7 in C major is a secondary dominant that resolves to some kind of D,
we can do in first inversion to create nice chromatic bass-line.
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
C E G B - C E G A
Sharpen the C and it's VI7 you wanted. Then flatten everything and its your bVI7. Yes, B-Ab is an augmented second, it's hard to see how could it be anything else - there is no closer note available. Does it matter? It's still a stepwise movement, the number of semitones is irrelevant.
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What I don't yet follow is what is your relationship to these rules regarding jazz.
Why do they matter? They are not the only path to voice leading that sounds good.
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
First of I will say that I never heard of any rule regarding aug. second, but I do think it's not something to just be ignored, it DOES matter.
Also, I think that as long as the movement is right, it will sound 'ok', even if it was an actual minor 3rd.
As for the reason of this rule:
First of all, you should see that in basic 2-5-1 the same thing applies.
It does create a different sound, perhaps smoother and more gentle voice leading. of course we shouldn't limit ourselvs to this rule, but rather use it as a tool, just like when I use rules regarding doublings and voice leading as a tool when composing Bach-style Chorale.
What I'm saying is that sometimes I would want to do it, and sometime I would want to avoid doing it. Same thing applies for parallel fifth in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
sometimes I would want to do it, and sometime I would want to avoid doing it. Same thing applies for parallel fifth in my opinion.
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Well, since I don't like power chords, I try to avoid parallel fifths mostly.
In jazz it's much easier, I don't play the fifth of the chord many times, and almost never double the root.
You suggested another solution (which I will try, I think it's a good option), but this question has a two-ways interest for me. Firstly, I like smooth voice leading in my jazz playing.
But secondly, and just as important, I wonder how classical composers would solve these problems.
#9 probably isn't one of the classical solutions, especially if we're talking about a German chord which should go to the V of the original scale.
I'm going to ask my friend who studied classical harmony and composition at university level about this matter in a few days when we'll meet.Last edited by hed_b94; 04-22-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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