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I don't think Joe would hold on the maj 3rd, but as a passing note it was one of his faves. The Mingus voicing was also used by Oscar Peterson, only he would use both the minor and maj 7th like so.
G7 = G B D F F#
MW
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07-27-2008 04:33 PM
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Hi renema - is the second example of a line cliche supposed to read Cm, Cm+,
Cm6, Cm7?? Lime like Cry Me A River??
Sailor
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Hey Matt - wouldn't the F# make the Dm a D7 which is V of G7, and the new leading tone??
Sailor
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The F# could be thought of as the leading tone of G7 if you held it, which would give it an accent. If it's passing it makes it sound chromatic more than a chord tone.
Lenny Breau used this method all the time, especially when playing trio, duo or solo. He would freely go between a iim7 and a II7 chord depending on the line he wanted to play. So the first time through the tune it could be Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, then the second time it could be D7-G7-Cmaj7.
It's a great technique, but we need to be careful when using it alongside a pianist as it might clash with their voicings.
MW
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Thanks matt - I just thought you always wanted to have the leading tone when temporarily tonicizing a new chord. Didn't you say that they do the same thing with rhythm changes, sometimes a minor ii, sometimes a II7?? (leading to V).
Sailor
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That's right, a iim7 chord gives it a subdominant sound and the II7 gives it a secondary dominant sound. It all depends on the situation. If you are blowing or comping it's kind of up to you which you want to use, but in a chord melody or behind a singer you should make sure the melody doesn't clash with the chord.
Though! If you play D7 instead of Dm7 and the melody is the m3rd, F, it becomes a D7#9 chord which is a very jazzy sound for a dominant chord.
MW
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So you're saying that this isn't really a clash here; it's a different chord that actually sounds pretty good??
Can you find my accompanying question and respond if you have time?
LOVE this thread
Sailor
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Yep that's right, sorry I don't know which accompanying question you mean, can you ask it again and I'll do my best to answer it for you.
MW
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Sorry to have to re-ask in this thread but my question about accompanying got some vague responses.
I'm going to be playing with a vocalist, standards, 30s and 40s. I don't really know what to do to extend the songs or fill in during instrumental breaks.
I didn't want to just play chord melody which seems like a lot of the same thing, or just do a verse comp or something. What do you fill with, ( especially on short songs like fly me to the moon)?
Thanks Sailor
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I usually just take a chorus or two of solo. I do chord solos, or single lines, or alternate the two. I also like to walk basslines and comp to fill up space if it doesn't seem to need a solo section.
The possibilities are endless, I would start with a few solo ideas and see how they feel to you.
MW
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Thanks a bunch - I think I'll use the idea of some bassline with comp. I'm not great at soloing if there's no accompaniment.
Sailor
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THE CHART OF ACCEPTABLE JAZZ TENSIONS
(Based on the "Chord-Scale Voicings for Arranging" course at Berklee)- TENSION 9: Can be added to all types of chords:
Dm9, Fm9b5, Gmaj9 etc... - TENSION b9/#9: Can be added only to dominant seventh chords:
D7b9 (good), G7#9 (good), Am7b9 (bad) - TENSION 11: Can be added only to minor chords:
Dm11 (good), Fm11b5 (good), G11 (bad -use G7sus4) - TENSION sus4: Can be added only to major chords:
D9sus4 (good), Fsus4 (good), Gm7sus4 (bad -use Gm11) - TENSION #11: Can be added only to major chords:
D9#11 (good), Fmaj7#11 (good), Gm7#11 (bad -sounds like Hungarian minor) - TENSION 13: Can be added only to major chords:
D13 (good), Fmaj13 (good), Dm13 (bad -sounds like a dominant seventh chord) - TENSION b13: Can be added only to dominant seventh chords:
D7b13 (good), Dm7b13 (bad -although used in line cliches)
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That's a good chart! The only thing I would add is that those rules are geared towards arrangers, mostly for horns etc. When comping sometimes these chords will work out, like m13(m6) chords which would sound bad in a horn arrangement. And when blowing the tension tends to depend on whether the note is accented or not, and if it's part of a pattern/phrase or stuck at the begining or end of a line.
Thanks for posting the chart!
MW
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The Arranging class at Berklee had some special guidelines for 9ths on what my yellowing workbook calls "melodic tensions":
9ths are not usually used on IIIm7 chords.
On m7b5 chords, the 9th is available only if diatonic to the key.
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It's nice to have scales relations explained, makes life so much easier...
I certainly like the way the scales are all in close proximity of the previous one, so you don't have to fly across the fretboard like a mad dog in search of water.
And one thing Matt, in one of your replies I saw you citing some 'Coltrane' patterns, you may not know this, but my foremost wish is to play the guitar like Coltrane did the sax, and I've found some thing with Coltrane patterns for download, but it's not tab, it's notes, and while I'm getting on better every day since I played trumpet in the school orchestra for a number of years, it's still not fluent again on the reading thing, so I wonder if you know some source for tabs of those patterns, I'd be ever so relieved and happy, I tried to understand the short pieces you mentioned in your reply, the # is for sharp, or raised I suppose, and I believe there was a B too, I suppose that's lowered, but is that referring to the note pre to the B or the following one? And I suppose the numbers are Major ones, not minor or something?
But as I said - the lessons are swell, and it's good to have the scales close to one another!
Peace
Oh, and by the way, this is where I found the download of Trane patterns:
Casa Valdez Studios: Coltrane patterns
skei
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Cool, yeah the # is short for sharp, or raised by a half step, one fret, and the b is short for flat, or lowered by a half step, one fret.
I am just writing an article on Coltrane patterns that will be up on this site in the coming weeks. Stay tuned as it will contain a bunch of Trane's patterns in tab form.
MW
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Great man!
Originally Posted by m78w
I'll be sure to look for it, you can count on that!
Peace
Skei
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You have 4 possibilitys for the altered chord, this meens you must altered with b9, #9 and b5, #5. Originally Posted by samuelparsons
If i wrong please someone must corrige me
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altered tensions can be any diatonic note in a chord that raised or lowered a half step. When you see G7alt or Galt written then, yea, you're right on the money.
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Thanks for posting the Trane Patterns! John Coltrane was a fabulous musician.
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Hi - I'm new to playing jazz (having played in cabaret for many years). My wife is a very good singer and she likes the old standards e.g. by Ella and Sarah Vaughan. My problem is, that though I know most of the 'standard' chord shapes - including minors, augmented and diminished chords - I am not conversant with many of the chords I see mentioned in this forum e.g. minor 7b5 (and many others). Is there book out there that can give me the shapes for these less common shapes? I don't read music, but I can read guitar tab. P.S. I have copied one or two of the song chord patterns put on by Matt Warnock, and they have helped - thanks Matt.
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Hi Bruce, all chord you need to know are in our free chords ebook:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/subscribe.html
- Dirk
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Yeah, the chord theory lesson on the jazzguitar.be website will help too.
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08-31-2008, 12:31 PM #74Stringbean Guest
This lesson is helpful, but it would be really great to have some audio examples of the material. I'm working with the scales, but it aint sounding like jazz.
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One thing you can do is start to add the chromatic notes from the chromatic lesson on this site to make these scales sound more "jazzy". Remember it's not the scales/arps that make it sound like jazz, it's the feel, swing, pulse and the notes that aren't in the scale that give it that "jazzy" sound.
MW
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