Practicing Chords from the Real Book

[docbop]

He talks about playing alterations on the weak side of the beat or on weaker beats. His statement is that you can basically get away with anything on the weak beat, and it really holds up in most situations.

When playing bass I checked out a lot of Gary Willis materials. He talks about that all the time in reference to playing bass both for line and soloing. That the ear has expectations one of them is it wants chord tones on strong beats (remember talking bass) that on weak beats the ear doesn't care what is played. Gary had a Youtube demo'ing this that was very cool. First playing non-chord tones on strong beats and how it sounded off then switching to chord tones and everything is good again. Then he demo's just play random notes on weak beats totally wrong notes and its like okay no big deal.

I found it interest studying bass it was discuss a lot about playing based on what the ear expects and I don't hear that being talked about much in guitar world. That's why symmetric movement and similar things work because the ear recognizes that's what's going on almost immediately, way before our brain comprehends what's going on.

[Flyin' Brian]

Playing alterations on the weak beats works as does keeping it down to the 3rd and 7th. The other important thing is to stay out of the range of soloist as much as possible, especially with a vocalist.

I did a quartet gig for a year that taught me as much about "fitting in" and I still use the lessons I learned.

The bassist has the root, the singer has the melody, that leaves the other notes for me and the notes I pick depend totally upon what the singer is doing.

[mrblues]

Thank You all for the answers. Going to check out Regs videos.

Still have the same problem, my teacher doesnt like any way I play the chords, and I can really say he is absolutely inconsequent.

One day he says the chords are "ok", another they the same chords for the same song are cr@p. One day he says "You should get out of the soloists way and play only the chords written in the sheet music." Another day he says: "Why dont you do what I said?! You should play the chords with alterations, as I was talking about these before".

Unfotrunately we dont like each with my teacher. I hardly wait to finish the school and forget this "teacher".

Its a pity that I am not allowed to change teacher in the last semester...

mrblues

[Cunamara]

Hi Guys!

I know the question is weird, but to clarify this The Real Book gives very simple chords to play, and I need to know what tensions You use when playing chords under the soloist.

Almost none. I use extensions (9, 11, 13) sometimes, but when people are soloing I let them pick and choose their extensions and tensions. It's too easy to clash with that the soloist is trying to do and my job is to make them sound good. I also typically leave the root and 5th off of most chords during solos to give room to the bassist. It's tempting to get "advanced" but to my ears simple usually sounds much, much better.

In fact, listening to playback of my band's recordings at gigs, during solos it tends to sound better the less I play. Maybe that's just a comment on my playing skills. When I pull back and let bass, drums and soloist have at it the whole thing seems to open up and becomes more interesting. Chords can cover up a lot of stuff that's going on. I am experimenting with playing more short phrases behind the soloists than chords, maybe 2-4 beat phrases every four bars or so- along the lines of Jim Hall with Art Farmer.

[Reg]

Generally there are standard Harmonic approaches, that means... when you play a series of changes... the notes you use, such as extensions, alterations, basically any note besides the notated chord(s)... anyway you use a method of organizing where those notes come from.

A simple example could be... D-7 to G7 / E-7 to A7 / D-7 G7 / Cma7... /

So I could just use a diatonic maj/min functional harmony approach.... play the chord tones, or just 3rds and 7ths etc... and yea I would sound like vanilla putting, might as well not even play, when it comes right down to it. Most ears will hear the changes whether I play or not.

So I could use a constant structure organization... Play basically Dorian to Mixo for both sets of II V's... that's not playing Cmaj the Dmaj.... I would be implying D-7 to G7 and use all the extensions... then the same thing with E-7 to A7, again the extensions coming from Dorian on the minor chords and from Mixo for the Dom chords.

I'm not playing Cmaj to Dmaj. The notes may be the same... but how I use the notes is very different. This is in the direction of using modal concepts... same sets of notes... but different notes create the relationships.

Or I could go in a blues direction... Personally I use Melodic Min to harmonically organize blue notes, very different from Blues and Rock styles.

So D-7 to G7 would become... D-9 to D-11 ..G13 to G7b13 /
E-7 to A7 would become...... E-7b5 to E-7b5 11.. A7b13#9 to A7b13b9
D-7 to G7 would become......D-9 to D-11 ... G13sus to G7b13../
Cmaj7 would become C6./9 etc...

So there are many different approaches... just think of how many style of tunes there are, each one of those tunes generally implies some type of harmonic approach. And when you approach playing blues... it's the same thing.

Generally you'll only be over playing when you can't hear what's going on.... if your listening to the rest of band and trying to fit in it's pretty hard to over play. I mean if what your playing sucks.... it doesn't really matter what or how little your playing.

The other very important aspect of comping is to play from the top down... think of what your playing, your comping as a
melody, a counter melody or a groove type of melody. Your filling in the notes below one of these types of lead lines with changes, chords.... your voicing the changes below your lead line.

This helps create a completely different approach to comping... the actual chords become chord patterns. Or if you choose to keep it vanilla... your at least creating the feel of harmonic motion, which is basically what playing Jazz is about.

Think about it and if I can fill in more details... I'll try

[targuit]

I think how you play depends a lot on the situation. For example, if playing with a singer and a bassist, the melody and bass are covered. You can play the third, seventh, suspensions, the ninth, and thirteenth or sixths. But you have to stay out of the way as well, and in that situation your rhythmic pulse is important with good inner voice leading.

If you are playing a solo chord melody thing, you have to provide the bass and melody line as well. To me nothing is writ in stone. But don't overthink it.

Jay

[Dirk]

Hi Guys!

I know the question is weird, but to clarify this The Real Book gives very simple chords to play, and I need to know what tensions You use when playing chords under the soloist.

Here you go:

How to Read Jazz Chord Changes | Music Theory

[targuit]

Nice and very lucid link, Dirk!

[Reg]

Great organized example posted above... but somewhat in the typical guitar teaching method... here's a bunch of examples, and the organization is... only play what sounds good. When we teach harmonic organization as Color chords... it's pretty easy to see why guitarist hit walls.

[targuit]

Seems to me that too often we forget that these extensions and tensions like alt chords or V7b9ths are essentially musical intervals from the tonic and in their harmonic context have distinct aural colors and emotional qualities. Although one can delve deeply into the theory, in the end you build harmony in terms of intervals and their associated aural and emotional 'colors' in that harmonic context. The ear rules in my opinion. Mileage may differ....

Jay

[matt.guitarteacher]

Great organized example posted above... but somewhat in the typical guitar teaching method... here's a bunch of examples, and the organization is... only play what sounds good. When we teach harmonic organization as Color chords... it's pretty easy to see why guitarist hit walls.

I'm still very interested in your idea of blue Notes from melodic minor. Look forward to your following up on that thread that you started. I know you're busy. Thanks always. :-)

[Reg]

Jay... you can build chords with intervals, and make personal choices as to what sounds Good... and that choice generally changes. Not good or Bad... but you can also organize which and from where those intervals are from with respect to an organizational concept. Which generally creates a better reference when creating relationships, the ear can still be your final choice. But at least your not just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks and what doesn't.

Yea Matt... sorry, I'm busy and even more... just lazy. I'll try and put something up. It's not that complicated... melodic minor opens up references for blue notes which can become a harmonic organization for usage...

[wizard3739]

You must keep in mind what your job is as an accompanist. Your job is to support the singer/lead soloist. This means you should do your best to make the soloist sound great. It does indicate you should not play melody lines or your own melodic substitute lines over the soloist. Most of you probably already know about not stepping on the soloist during their solo so I may be singing to the choir here. Keep your chords sparse and simple in support of the soloist.

wiz

[Reg]

Hey Howie... Being an accompanist is one job, and our job in respect to playing real book changes is or can be as simple as keep it simple etc... But there is also and can be much more. Playing melodic lines and lead lines with chords... can make front performers sound much better than they actually are.

There can be much more than playing as little as possible and also in what that sparse playing could be. If your performing memorized or written out arrangements... depending on skill levels... there is also room for improv.

But yes... if you don't know what your doing... keep it simple.

[drbhrb]

If a pianist or another guitarist just play 3rds and 7ths or straight real book changes behind me I'd be bored to tears. Knowing what extensions to use is a combination of listening to what the soloist is doing and understanding the function of the chords within the context of the song. Cherry picking a few examples, you can add more altered extensions on the dominant chord of the key compared to secondary dominants. You might add an 11th to a ii-7 but the 11th would sound weird on a iv- chord in a walk down from the IV or #iv-7b5. (generally speaking, there are no hard and fast rules)....

It's also a matter of getting to know the style of people you play with.

[christianm77]

Hi Guys!

I know the question is weird, but to clarify this The Real Book gives very simple chords to play, and I need to know what tensions You use when playing chords under the soloist.

For example there is the tune callded Tenor Madness. I know when there is a 4th chord which would be a major, but in jazz blues its a dominant, I must play alterations inside of the chord. And I know that the melody defines the alterations. But what if I have only chord tones in the melody, and there is no solo yet ( I know when playing with soloist I need to hear the alterations and follow him/her with my chords) ?

Should I put alterations into the chords in this case and if yes what kind of alterations?

How do You guys go that?

thanks,

MrBlues

Writing another response as I don't think my first actually addressed your question

My very first lesson in jazz was with Dave Cliff, a legendary player in these parts. He basically advised me to learn Root 3rd and 7th and later 5th.

One this is done, you can move to the extensions. A common way to practice is in chord scales - taking triads, sevenths or ninth chords through the scale - usually major, melodic minor and harmonic minor (that's enough for me.)

TBH, I feel like I'm still working on the seventh chords! Much of my playing both chordal and linear is within the seventh, but there is a lot to master here.

It is highly dependent on style and taste. You need to learn to comp, but comping that one player might like, another might not. I find that plain stuff always works well. I see myself as padding out the sound of the group between bass and soloist, perhaps adding in a but of 'counterpoint' in the soloists gaps by playing a touch more busily here, but always listening.

I saw Dave again recently and modest as ever, he was quick to downplay his chordal knowledge saying that he relies primarily on drop 2 voicings and three note chords. He comps amazingly IMHO

[mrblues]

Thank You all guys for Your answers!

After I spent months learning drop2's and 3's, I am learning Freddie chords now...

This would have to be the 1st when learning chords, but my teacher doesnt even take care of triads either (I am also learning those atm)...