Practicing Chords from the Real Book

[ianskian]

Hi,can someone tell me why the chord symbols in real book "sometimes" have the # symbol in brackets behind the name ?? like in stella Ab7(#11)tks.

[m78w]

That means that the 11th, in this case Db, is raised, in this case to D natural.

The # means that the original note is raised by one fret. So if it says C7(#9), that means that the ninth, D, is raised to D#.

You'd probably only see that symbol next to a 9th, 5th and 11th in the Real Book.

How to Read Jazz Chords and Lead Sheets

MW

[Jake Hanlon]

---------------
-4--------3----
-5--------5----
-4--------4----
---------------
-4--------4----
Ab7 Ab7(#11) or Ab7(b5)


Raised by 1 fret can be confusing depending on how much of a "noob" you are. It means raised in pitch, often times newcomers can be confused to the visual Vs sonic aspect of raised and lowered much like the 1st string is not the string closest to you but the furthest from you and is the highest in pitch.

Just thought I'd clarify that incase it was confusing.

In many cases this chord can or will be written with a (b5). This is the same thing just written differently based on different circumstances. #11 can be exchanged with b5 in many instances.

[ianskian]

thanks for the heads up re; #11 v/s b5- still why in real book notation are some chords written with this # note in brackets ( ) does this mean it can be played differently or optionally?check out stella on page 382(real bk 6th ed.)while the next page Steps by Chick C shows a Ab maj 7#11 not in brackets? i know i am probably missing something very obvious but am very new to reading notation! tks. Ianskian

[Gabe2099]

i think that the difference is that the Ab7(#11) is a dominant 7th chord with an added #11 and the Abmaj7#11 is a major 7th chord with an added #11.

that's regarding the type of each chord, i don't really know why one has (#11) and the other just #11. perhaps Ab7(#11) denotes a chromatic alteration on the 11th and Abmaj7#11 denotes an added tone?

i'm not really sure... to be honest, chord names (and to some extent chord theory) is one of my weak points. this is an assumption based on some quick research.

ps: it's kind of late here... so this is kind of me rambling lol

[m78w]

I think what happened is that the real book was originally written by at least four different people. So they probably all used slightly different chord symbols and nobody thought to make them unified in the final edition.

So Ab7(#11), Ab7#11, Ab7b5 and Ab7(b5) are all the same chord, just different ways of writing it.

Matt

[Gabe2099]

i kinda forgot about this thread

so it's just different way of writing them... was i at least right with the Ab7(#11) being a dominant 7th chord with the added #11 and the Abmaj7#11 being a major 7th chord with the added #11?

[J.T.Slominsky]

The brackets are just a way to make things a bit easier to read. For instance, Ab7#11 is easy enough to read, but Ab7b9#9#11 might be a bit tougher than Ab7(#9,b9,#11). This separates the essential chord from its extensions. Also, another way to write that would be Ab7(alt.9, #11). I tend to prefer the brackets because they allow me to see the important stuff when I'm sight-reading a chart. It's probably not a great habit, but I'm generally not thinking about grabbing all of the extensions when I'm reading down a big band chart at 220 bpm.

Also, m78w's response was right on the money. The Real Book was originally written by a group of college students (Berklee I believe) as transcription projects. Thus, there are large amounts of inconsistencies from song to song concerning notation. Not to mention, The Real Book is notorious for having wrong changes in it. The best advice I've ever received was to make my own charts for a gig. That not only helps with transcription skills, but also makes you appreciate how different people play melodies to time-honored tunes as well as giving you some insight into substitutions.

I apologize for the rambling, it's quite late here. Hope this helps a bit.

[pierre richard]

Hey JT...I have some of the charts from Berklee before they became the real book...and yes ... lots of wrong chords...

For the beginners I have always said just stick to the basic chord you know (upon first sight)...C7...C9....instead of C7-9 or C9+5...etc....but the first chance you get get your chord book out and look it up or better yet use you head an figure it out and alter your fingering accordingly..

ramble on man....time on the instrument....pierre

[Paul J Edwards]

Just a thought...
A #11 chord would also contain the perfect 5th while the b5 would not.
Is this not correct

[Luan]

Anyways, who would use the #11 and 5 at the same time?

[m78w]

I use this chord a lot for Bb7

0
6
7
6
x
6

MW

[Shmals]

to my understanding i was taught that Ab7#11 meant there was an implied 9th, as this symbol means a dominant chord with a raised 11th that include extensions below. however, Ab7(#11) means it is a dominant chord with an added #11. and often, depending on the orchestration available, this note is a matter of choice to the rhythm section. this is further proved as a Ab7#11 would be a color chord (in most cases omitting the 9 if the #11 was melodic) when the Ab7(#11) chord would imply that the #11 was a melody note. notice that in Stella, the melody does in fact contain a #11 at this point. on the next page we do find Steps with a AbMaj7#11. when we consult the melody we find the occurrence of a #11 and a 9th. notice also that Red Clay (pg.338) uses a similar technique over a C-7(11) chord. the melody descends from the tonic to the minor 3 but never touches the 9. ------------------------ it is my personal belief that this notation is strongly rooted in big band and swing playing. the melody is so important in jazz and must be treated exactly right. peace . - jmc

[Luan]

Sadly, there isn't 2 people who write using the same chord system.
In berklee you are taught to put all the tensions in () no matter if the chords have the 7th or not, and if you put for example C-7(11), it means you have C Eb G Bb F.
I like a lot this system since it's clear which are the tensions. If the chord has also 9, you must put it.
The other question is when to put the tensions or not, since we play jazz and it's like obvious you have to put tensions, so when a lead sheet has a c9, does it mean that the rest of the chords without a 9 symbol shouldn't use a 9?
A lot of confusion is done with those things.

[Shmals]

i agree that there are too many systems. but that is testament to the elusive power of music. where you put C-7(11) = C Eb G Bb F you are right. the difference would be that C-11 = C Eb G Bb D F. in this case the extension of a 7 is natural. on a dominant chord it would be C11 = C E G Bb D F. on a Major 7 chord it would be CMaj 11 = C E G B D F. see how simple this is (especially after you get used to it). serves the melody.

[Luan]

I knew the answer, but still we think different.
I meant that the berklee system says that if you put a (11) it doesn't mean you also have the 9 there, opossed to the way a lot of musicians think usually.
Also, I would never play a 11 on a dominant chord for example, if I see a C13 I will not play the 11 for sure.
Hope my post is clear now.

[J.T.Slominsky]

Personally, I'm a fan of Brett Wilmont's approach that he lays out in the Mel Bay Complete Book of Theory, Harmony, and Voice Leading. Basically, if you want the natural 5th on a tone that's an altered 5th (#11 or b13), write #11 or b13. If not, write b5 or #5.

In response to Luan's comment about never putting an 11th on a dominant chord, I agree to some extent. However, have you ever tried substituting the 3rd for the 11th? Technically this is a Dominant sus4 chord and not an 11th chord, but it's a great sound, especially over ii-V-Is. Since D-11 (root position, subbing 11 for 5) is the same voicing as G7sus4 (2nd inversion, subbing 4 for 3), you can use the same voicing over two chords. Then, that same voicing transfered up a whole step is C6(9) (1st inversion, no root). It's a wonderful "modal" sound that guitar players can pull out all of their pentatonic licks over. Great stuff. However, if I were to see C13, I probably wouldn't play that kind of sound. Only on something a little more "open".

I like to use the "implication" system that I've developed through a lot of extremely haphazard playing of standards. It basically goes like this:

1. When any set of extensions is implied, you as the guitar player may play any of them.
2. On minor chords, all natural extensions imply the minor scale except for 6, which implies Dorian and its extensions.
3. On major chords, all natural extensions imply the major scale. #11 implies the lydian mode (fourth mode of major). #5 implies the lydian augmented mode (3rd mode of melodic minor).
4. On dominant chords, all natural extensions imply the mixolydian mode (5th mode of major). ANY altered tension implies the altered scale and any altered tensions are considered free game. Also, this is one of the few chords where mixing common natural and altered tensions imply new scales such as b9 and #9 with a natural 5 imply a diminished scale while natural 9 with a b5 and a #5 imply the whole tone scale. Essentially, I use altered tensions on dominants to play whatever sound is convenient at the moment. Also, remember that with little exception, altered tensions on tritone substitutions are the same as natural extensions on dominant chords. Either way, you're bound to come out ahead with these.

Like I said before, this system is neither original nor a specific model for playing. It's just the kind of open ended thinking that I normally approach real book charts with to stimulate ideas and free myself from the monotony of playing the same sounds over and over. I'm also completely reassured by the fact that I'm the only one who does this.

Hope this helped someone.

[Shmals]

i like what you are saying. makes sense. the point is that you have the ability to be selective as to which tones you play.

[JohnW400]

Naming chords is always tough. The further away from the 1,3,5 you go, the more ambiguous they can get.

I tend to think of it more as not what you call it but more like what can you get away with playing over it.

The #11 / b5 issue always comes up here. Sure, you can think a dominant 7b5 and get away with it , but if I want to emphasize the Lydian Dominant sound then I would put a natural 5 in the chord or scale.

The same applies with 9,11,13. The implication to me (at least in theory class) was that these extensions were used on top of a seventh. so that a minor 11 was 1 3 5 7 9 11. However If I play this chord on guitar using only 4 notes then I would have to move 3 up to 4 (11) which doesn't fit the 'theory'. And of course there's no 9. If I had to play a minor 11 in the strictest theoretical form, my choices get very limited.

The other issue is that minor 9th between the 3rd and the 11th , but sometimes that's a good thing

If we move away from the 'strict ' theory and think out of the box a bit, a guitarist can come up with tons of useful voicings that we can 'get away' with. ( like a A11 voiced 1 7 3 11 5 or x 0 5 6 3 0.) If you only thought in what is the correct theoretical name, you wouldn't think to look for this chord. To me, I put the extension in any voice and it is what it is.

[mrblues]

Hi Guys!

I know the question is weird, but to clarify this The Real Book gives very simple chords to play, and I need to know what tensions You use when playing chords under the soloist.

For example there is the tune callded Tenor Madness. I know when there is a 4th chord which would be a major, but in jazz blues its a dominant, I must play alterations inside of the chord. And I know that the melody defines the alterations. But what if I have only chord tones in the melody, and there is no solo yet ( I know when playing with soloist I need to hear the alterations and follow him/her with my chords) ?

Should I put alterations into the chords in this case and if yes what kind of alterations?

How do You guys go that?

thanks,

MrBlues

[Takemitsu]

Hi Guys!

I know the question is weird, but to clarify this The Real Book gives very simple chords to play, and I need to know what tensions You use when playing chords under the soloist.

I would say your best bet is to NOT use "alterations" when you play under the soloist. A 3rd and a 7th are enough.


The worst jamming experience I hard was with a pianist that could never shut-up (pianisticaly). Plays too much and too many "alterations". Nightmarish.

[TH]

Wow that can be a huge question you'll revisit and revise throughout your life, or answer right now for the rest of your life. Chord and note choice depends on a number of things. Where you're chord is going, how you want to get there, who you're playing with, how open minded your teachers and advisors are, how good your ear is, how long you've been playing...for starters.
One answer (of many) is chord note choice is not so much determined by the specific melody, but by the key, or notes of that key (chord scale) you are playing in. So step back and take a look at the notes that work in that key at the time, or within that phrase (it may leave the key for a time too) and get to know those notes by ear.
There are also note choices that get you somewhere, are passing between primary note choices, but often, chromatic or not, they imply a sense of movement. But I'd say before you get into that, learn to hear diatonic note choices in constructing chords.
If that's confusing, say so, and we'll explain further.

David

[matt.guitarteacher]

Watch some of reg's comping videos. One of those was worth a few years of theory and practice for me personally.

He talks about playing alterations on the weak side of the beat or on weaker beats. His statement is that you can basically get away with anything on the weak beat, and it really holds up in most situations.

The main thing that this does is it teaches your ears almost immediately to hear good chordal movements in different situations. You'll hear things that work and don't work. You'll hear alterations that work better in one situation or another.

Play the basic chord to start, and add color as you're going to the next chord. Trains your ears to hear things that later you can do on purpose anywhere in the beat. I found that I was almost immediately able to apply a lot of things I had worked on and thought about "theoretically" before but doing this.

Also teaches you to hear chord movements. I'm still a rookie at most of this. Eventually you'll want to know why things work In terms of theory, but theory is often best learned after you've had some practice with things.

[MarkRhodes]

He talks about playing alterations on the weak side of the beat or on weaker beats. His statement is that you can basically get away with anything on the weak beat, and it really holds up in most situations.

That really comes as a revelation to many of us, me included.

[matt.guitarteacher]

That really comes as a revelation to many of us, me included.

I like it because the ear is the real teacher. You start hearing inner voices moving , and can quickly figure out what doesn't work . Even before you know why it doesn't work.