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Absolutely. If he's talking about Unforgettable in F and the chords are F - % - Fo - % (for simplicity's sake) then the melody note over the Fo is an E which is quite dissonant.
As you say, that happens a lot but wouldn't appear in the chord symbol (as some chord sheets do with b9's and #11's etc).
So, to answer pauln's question, it's just a diminished chord. Well, as far as we know :-)*
* some versions just play E7 or E7b9
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08-20-2018 05:35 AM
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Well it’s the same thing as Stella in that case. Don’t know that tune very well...
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Yeah I think modern charts tend to put the melody in the extensions as much as practical, but they basically never bother doing this with dim7s. I’m sure there’s a reason.
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Do you mean the start of Stella, which is A over Em7b5? Not quite a diminished although there's a similarity. There's one in Georgia depending what chords you use.
'Old sweet song'... 'song' is an E and I'm usually playing an Abo at that point. Sounds luvly :-)
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The original chord was a dim7, and some players prefer that chord.
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Are there any other substantial differences in the original? In fact, what is the original? The RB version is E7 or D7.
I think I found it by doing a iii for I sub first. Instead of FM7 - D7 - Gm7, I did Am7 - Abo - Gm7. Nice bass line.
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If you go to youtube and search for 'barry harris stella by starlight' you should be able to find that clip of Barry having a go about how no-one plays the 'correct' changes to Stella any more.
Actually he does play some tasty chords for it as I recall, it's certainly interesting.
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Is there not a thread somewhere on this subject? I feel like it's been discussed a lot?
Stella By Starlight - the original music with changes (from the movie >>The Uninvited<< 1944) - YouTube
It's basically romantic harmony Rachmaninoff style. It's a different key, tho, and written out in half time compared to the usual jazz lead sheets.
I usually play something like (not exactly the same)
Dbo7 | % | F7 | % |
Bb7 | % | Eb | Ebm |
Bb | Gm | Dm | Bbm6/Db |
F/C | Bbo7| Am7b5 | D7 |
G+ | % | Cm | % |
Ebm | % | Bb | % |
Dbo7 | % | Dm7b5 | A7 |
Cm7b5 | F7 | Bb | % |
I've left the melody extensions out of this very basic chart.
Jordan has a worksheet on both versions of the changes, he has some difference. AFAIK he prefers the originals. Peter Bernstein and Barry Harris too. Peter and Barry point out that the first chord in the original tune is actually an inversion of bIIIo7, and that's why I play Dbo7.
I'm in two minds, I like both. Some really elegant moves before the middle 8, where you get some very uninspired min ii-V BS in the real book chart that does nothing for me, so I often play more like the original for that bit with that lovely bassline.
Anyway, if you play a solo based on one set of the changes over the other, it works fine. The main thing to watch out for is that A7b9 isn't an altered scale sound in that context (obviously if you are playing the RB changes, doesn't matter.)
Also just out of interest, a friend, Daniel Harding Israelson (who I haven't seen for yonks) posted this version of the changes, the 1964 Miles ones apparently:
Stella by Starlight chords changes - music chords
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Stella is such a nice song, I usually start it alone, kind of gently re-harmonized chord melody tempo rubato, from these chords (whose names I'll leave as an exercise for anyone interested, because I'm not very good at deducing the names of things)...
9-x-8-9-10-x
7-x-6-7-8-x
x-10-11-11-10-x
x-9-10-10-11-x
8-x-8-8-6-x
x-x-7-8-6-x
x-x-7-9-9-x
x-x-7-8-9-x
x-6-8-7-6-x
4-x-4-5-6-x
then have everyone begin to join me here, picking up and gradually leveling out the pace...
6-x-5-8-x-x
x-7-8-7-x-x
x-x-5-6-6-x
x-5-7-5-8-x
9-x-8-10-10-x (I love this chord here!)
from then proceeding on regular pace.
You know when you know that one of your audience members is a guitarist... you can tell they are actively listening? I noticed one a little while back one night when performing Stella and when a solo verse came around I gave the beginning the Bireli treatment - reharmonizing it to:
x-x-5-7-7-5
x-x-5-6-6-5
octaves of G A Bb
8-x-8-8-6-x
etc.
He gave the look that says, "I heard what you did there... I know you did that for me!"
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Sorry, a bit of info overload from all these posts here.
Originally Posted by grahambop
There are several BH Stellas, either classes or performances. Nothing to do with you, but my patience is very short with the classes. For one thing I'm no good with all the chat and, maybe more importantly, it's all on piano. I can't really translate all that complex piano stuff into guitar. It is nice, though. The harmonies are subtle. Maybe they're good for chord melody players but that's not my thing either.
So I think it means I have to marvel and appreciate from a distance. Sorry if this seems negative from your (and others) point of view. When all's said and done I'll probably extract sounds I particularly like from these versions and see where we are then.
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I quite like the Dbo too. I haven't explored all the changes yet. Originally Posted by christianm77
As for the Miles version:
I thought it was a bit weird at the beginning despite the ecstatic hollering. Rest was okay :-)
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No worries, those videos are quite hard work, like being back at school (and Barry reminds me of my grumpy old maths teacher!). I want the harmonic knowledge those piano guys have though. Also I want to steal their chords! I managed to work out the first few chords Barry plays on Stella, must do the rest sometime. Originally Posted by ragman1
On guitar it would be something like this:
Bb dim (maj7) xx8655
Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331
F13b9 1x4231
Fm9 1x1113
Bb13b9 x56433
Really like that last one, never would have thought of that myself.
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I’ve had a few Stella’s
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Haven't had one of those since the 1980s!
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Interesting... but hard work. Originally Posted by grahambop
I knew an Ethel once
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I dunno... I don't find it all that hard to figure those chords out. Really it's a case of picking out the 'colour' notes that stand out beside the 'regular' chord tones. For me, often easier to hear on a piano than on a guitar. Originally Posted by ragman1
But I learned everything by ear from records for several years when I started, there was no slowdown software (or internet!) back then, and I had no books. Which as I recall was quite hard at first, but I think it trained my ears well.
I did use a reel-to-reel tape deck at half-speed sometimes, but as it dropped everything an octave it wasn't always that useful, the sound would get very muddy.
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Trouble is, Graham, that I don't really do chord melody. I find it very hard work, I'm not patient enough, every time I think of something I think of another version five seconds later, etc etc. It's not really me, unfortunately. I used to play classical, which is somewhat similar, but there the piece was set; one memorised it and played it. With jazz there are many ways to tackle it...
And I learned from records too. 45 to 33 to ?16, and slowly wearing out the record to get it right. I think I've given that up now because, whereas before I was imitating a style, now I just play what I want. You may have noticed :-)
Also, of course, doing it for myself hasn't any meaning for me. It would have to be for something... and apart from here there isn't. Boo hoo.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it
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And that is how you learn to play as good as grahambop.... NO BLOODY SHORTCUTS* Originally Posted by grahambop
*i need to remind myself of this every practice session.
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Yeah I related my harmonic ear wasn’t too great recently, all that single note stuff was great but didn’t help with chords, I think the only way to work on it is to try and figure stuff out, starting with trial and error and getting better at recognising familiar sounds. I think I’ve already got quite a bit better. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I beg to differ Originally Posted by ragman1
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haha thanks very much Christian. I even used to write out the chord changes of tunes by ear, I didn’t know there was such a thing as a fakebook! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yes Prince............................... and from the post above Originally Posted by princeplanet
Half dim can also be a tritone sub for the 1 chord.
BbMaj7 - EbMaj7- Dmin - G7 becomes
Emin7(b5)- EbMaj7- Dmin - G7
the Emin7(b5) is C9 & Bb lydian no Roots, C Mixolydian is Bb lydian in slang.....................
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I'm okay with chords, I know most of them, even inversions and specific string sets, but it's only for backing. Chord melody means learning all those new fingerings, often tortuous, and I don't need them. I play with them sometimes, and really like some of the sounds people have created, but I don't need to use them. Originally Posted by christianm77
I probably ought to experiment a bit more and incorporate them into solos. I'm not good at chordal sounds in solos. It's a weak point.
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Yeah it’s a great sub - Originally Posted by Durban
I know you wrote it that way to illustrate the concept, but it’s nicer if the melody permits an Ebm6 there after the Em7b5, or if the melody doesn’t fit, an A7. Em7b5 to Ebmaj7 is not such good voiceleading to my ears.
Think of the first few bars of I thought about you. Originally it was a 1 6 2 5
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This is one thing I teach to everyone
G7 = Dm = Bm7b5 = Fmaj7(#11)
Goes a long way I think
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