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09-11-2010, 03:34 AM #1gitmike2 Guest
i'm looking for some help if you can provide it.
i want to improve my ability to hear changes.......for less reliance on the real book.
are there some important tunes to learn, (in more than one key i guess,) which have progressions and commonalities with so many other tunes .....that my facility to hear my way through changes in general, could improve?
thanks for any assistance you can provide.
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09-11-2010 03:34 AM
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Well, there's no substitute for just doing a lot of listening and playing in order to be able to (almost) instantly recognize harmonic patterns, but:
If you're trying to determine the chord progression to a song you're listening to, focus on the bass line first to determine the underlying root motion. Then, you can determine whether the color is major or minor.
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If you are looking for a book, check out Hearin the Changes by Jerry Coker or Insights in Jazz by John Elliott. They are designed to help you see/hear common elements in jazz that appear in many songs. This may help with what you are trying to do....
Amazon.com: Hearin' the Changes (DEALING WITH UNKNOWN TUNES BY EAR, ORDER # 14270): Books
Dropback Method
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I can hear changes very easy... I've been involved in music too many years, but what I did as a young man, was tons of ear training, and I took the time to go through, and analysis all the standards. So you see the standard Forms and variations of most tunes. You'll begin to see most tunes follow basic harmonic rhythm and function. You'll get much more out if you go through the process, rather than someone telling you... You probably already can hear blues forms and harmonic movement, next would be Be-bop tunes, usually an AABA form or version of. The B sections are usually series of extended dominants...D7 G7 C7 F7 and back to "A" section, in this case, Bb. (not Secondary Dominants, they resolve to diatonic chords) Listen to tunes like "A Foggy Day", Basic eight bar chord pattern with a lot of the standard variations. The last version goes to the IV chord, or sub-dominant and then winds down. " All the things you are" similar eight bars phrases, but starts in rel. Min. (F- in key of Ab). modulates to Cmaj, then goes to parallel min, C-, a duel function chord. Eventually modulates to Gmaj. somewhat bridge like and back to our I- chord, F-, but ends on relative Maj. Both these tune use many of the standard harmonic or chord movements. Learn to hear extended Dominants, cycle of root motion down by 5ths, chords can change. Which will enable you to hear root motion by 4ths, or sub-dominant function root motion. Next hear root motion by 3rds, you can probable already hear going from Imaj to relative VI-, Cmaj to A-, which when you invert the interval becomes a 6th, C up to a A. Anyway when you go through and analysis tunes, you'll have references in your head from different tunes to help hear changes... Eventually you don't need the reference tunes ... you simple hear and understand. Best Reg
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09-11-2010, 03:59 PM #5gitmike2 Guest
thanks for the advice and suggestions......i'll have to,at the very least, concentrate on root movement.....i would think that a good way to practice this would be to play a progression and try to sing each root as i go.....any other ideas for that?
also, i really do have to study ATTYA more thoroughly and break it down as suggested.
the odd thing is, that as much as hearing changes (aside from the more simple tunes,) has eluded me, for many years i have had a strong ability to pick out melodies, (of course tonal center changes will throw me off,) but this hasn't yet translated to a good ability whith chords.
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Sounds like your heading in good direction. A lot of player like singing the notes... I never did, I just hear in my head, you can also hear voicings... hard to sing... What ever you do will become habit... It's always weird at gigs when players sing while there playing... When I picked a few tunes for examples I just started... You really need to go through at least one real book or some other fake book and analyze tunes. The more the better, it becomes simpler the more you do. If you run into problems, make a note and compare it when you see it again. I'll be glad to help if you get stuck.
Learn to hear tonal center changes. Again start with simple... Relative Min. from Maj. Cmaj to Amin. Then by P5th, up and down... Cmaj to Fmaj and Cmaj to Gmaj. etc... Best Reg
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09-12-2010, 12:22 PM #7gitmike2 Guest
thanks for the help.
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I really love the book, "Hearing the Changes." It is very organized, easy to understand, (well, it's jazz theory so some background is necessary) suggested exercises and theory.
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Hi There
Originally Posted by gitmike2
In my book, I say:
It is also worth considering some advice for the student trying to memorise jazz standards, given in the Manhattan School of Music, NYC, Jazz Student Handbook [MSM]. They say “12 tunes say it all!” All thirteen (if we include the Blues) songs they go on to list are included in this book and you might like to start with them. In the table below I suggest why they are important from my analysis ...And the songs are:
#SongImportanceJoins1BluesBlues form. Extremely common chord sequence. Contains the IV n Back brick and the notion of dropping back.Bootstrap2I’ve Got RhythmAABA form. Extremely common chord sequence.Sidewinder3CherokeeAABA form. Introduces the IV ’n’ Yak brick; Donna Lee Opening; B&S cadence approach; and has a bridge made up of New Horizons.New Horizon; Cherokee; (Dogleg)4Sweet Georgia Brown (Dig)ABAC form. Introduces dominants round the cycle and Chromatic Dropback.Sidewinder5Indiana (Donna Lee)ABAC form. Introduces the Donna Lee Opening brick, the Slow Launcher; On-Off; TTFA; Somewhereand To IV n Yak.(Dogleg); Backslider6How High the Moon (Ornithology)ABAC form. Two New Horizons + Bauble progression used in many other songs.New Horizon; Bauble; (Bird SPOT)7Out of NowhereABAC form. Introduces On-Off (nowhere)-On + Dropback; Rainy cadence; Sideslips.Cherokee; Bauble8PerdidoAABA form. Introduces the 7-chord Dropback; I Got Rhythm Bridge.Sidewinder; (Two Goes)9Honeysuckle RoseAABA form. Introduces the Honeysuckle Bridge used in many other songs, the two goes or more cadence; to IV ’n’ Back; TTFA.Bootstrap; Woody; (Two Goes)10Whispering (Groovin’ High)ABAC form. Introduces the On Off On + Dropbackbrick; Yardbird substitution.Bauble; (Happenstance)11All the Things You AreAABA form. Introduces the Pennies Ending; Extended cadence; Overrun; Nowhere.Sidewinder; Homer; New Horizon; Bauble12Night and DayUnusual form (ABABCB). Introduces the Starlight Cadence; On-off-on-off (oscillations); Night and Day Cadence.Bauble13LoverAABA form. Introduces the Sideslipconcept. Bridge modulates to key III.BaubleSo, yes, there are some songs that are worth more in terms of what they teach you than others. All the terms are described in the book and 238 songs are roadmapped in full to show the common elements across the repertoire.
Good luck!John Dropback.co.uk Home
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09-13-2010, 12:07 AM #10gitmike2 Guest
thanks for all the great advice and suggestions!
it's greatly appreciated.
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Excellent, thanks for that post. Originally Posted by jaelliott
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I'm just sorry that the table did not work in my post! But if you are creative you can reconstruct it. There are three columns.
J Dropback.co.uk Home
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I can't figure out how to make the table format correctly in the post. This is slightly more readable. John
# Song Importance Joins1 Blues Blues form. Extremely common chord sequence. Contains the IV n Back brick and the notion of dropping back. Bootstrap2 I’ve Got Rhythm AABA form. Extremely common chord sequence. Sidewinder3 Cherokee AABA form. Introduces the IV ’n’ Yak brick; Donna Lee Opening; B&S cadence approach; and has a bridge made up of New Horizons. New Horizon; Cherokee; (Dogleg)4 Sweet Georgia Brown (Dig) ABAC form. Introduces dominants round the cycle and Chromatic Dropback. Sidewinder5 Indiana (Donna Lee) ABAC form. Introduces the Donna Lee Opening brick, the Slow Launcher; On-Off; TTFA; Somewhereand To IV n Yak.(Dogleg); Backslider6 How High the Moon (Ornithology) ABAC form. Two New Horizons + Bauble progression used in many other songs. New Horizon; Bauble; (Bird SPOT)7 Out of Nowhere ABAC form. Introduces On-Off (nowhere)-On + Dropback; Rainy cadence; Sideslips. Cherokee; Bauble8 Perdido AABA form. Introduces the 7-chord Dropback; I Got Rhythm Bridge.Sidewinder; (Two Goes)9 Honeysuckle Rose AABA form. Introduces the Honeysuckle Bridge used in many other songs, the two goes or more cadence; to IV ’n’ Back; TTFA. Bootstrap; Woody; (Two Goes)10 Whispering (Groovin’ High) ABAC form. Introduces the On Off On + Dropbackbrick; Yardbird substitution. Bauble; (Happenstance)11 All the Things You Are AABA form. Introduces the Pennies Ending; Extended cadence; Overrun; Nowhere.Sidewinder; Homer; New Horizon; Bauble12 Night and Day Unusual form (ABABCB). Introduces the Starlight Cadence; On-off-on-off (oscillations); Night and Day Cadence. Bauble13 Lover AABA form. Introduces the Sideslipconcept. Bridge modulates to key III. Bauble
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09-13-2010, 01:53 PM #14gitmike2 Guest
thanks again
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Hey John... why introduce a bunch of non-musical terminology, when there already is existing labeling which works fine. Is it a means of getting through a process with out understanding the content... I'm not trying to knock, I checked out sight and don't understand why someone would go through system to, well it reminds me of transposing while sight reading...which I'm use to, and don't have any problems with... but there is already enough musical knowledge to recognize and understand. I apologize if I'm missing the methodology... Thanks Reg
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Hey Reg
Yes, I think you are misunderstanding. I based my book on the basic system proposed by Conrad Cork in the 1980s. The idea is based on association with things seen before in other songs which is the best way the memory works.
There are "bricks" of chord sequence in the key of the moment, some of which already have names (e.g. cadence) but most of which do not have names and there are "joins" to get from one brick to the next in a key-independent manner. As far as I know, joins are not addresses anywhere else. Their sound can be learned and they are key to playing by ear to hear where the song is going next.
These are the two elements needed to memorise a chord sequence and play in any key.
I liked the idea of Cork's system, but like others found it annoying that it needed extending every time I analysed a new song. So I analysed 238 songs and wrote up the extensions I found necessary. I also built a frequency analysis of bricks and joins so that I knew which were worth learning first.
This system is not aimed at experts who already play lots of standards in many keys. And I can see it is annoying if you have a different name for something than the one used in Cork's system. One I am aware of is the term "Backdoor Cadence" which Conrad chose to call Yardbird Cadence since it occurs in Yardbird Suite.
When I wrote my book, I tried to use standard terms if I knew them and Cork's otherwise and make up others as necessary. But the actual names used should not be an issue. If you electronically search through the PDF you can easily spot the element you are looking for, note its name and then see all the other songs in the book that it occurs in. Very powerful stuff.
Clearly, initially there is some considerable learning to do (no book can do this for the player), but the alternative is to do all the learning blind, not knowing how much more there is to know. My book shows you the extent of what you need to know to play most American Songbook standards and suggests a path of fastest learning using standards from the repertoire which is a lot more fun than reading books!
I hope that helps?
J
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I guess people just are different. I love the Griegson grids and the Lego bricks for understanding and remembering jazz tunes, and I've tried to show these to Reg a couple of times - and he's more or less indicated that he hate the idea (as far as I understood him). My conclusion has just been that what works for me does not necessarily work for everybody. Johns explanation is much better than mine, and that could maybe do the trick
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whatever works for you, fine...
but mindful repetition bestows manifold benefits that systems and gimmicks do not--training the fingers, internalizing the sound and feel of the harmony on deeper levels, instilling a sense of form to the point of instinct, time feel and greater rhythmic awareness...and the sheer joy of just playing the music...
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Hey Randalljazz Originally Posted by randalljazz
Yes indeed. This is no silver bullet. You still need to put in the x,000 hours playing and repeating.
But this is a framework that shows players what they should be learning in order to maximise payback.
J
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Just had an email from this forum saying:
So thought I would take the opportunity to ask you about this:We've noticed that you've not been active on the Jazz Guitar Forum for quite some time now, and we miss you!
Could we not tempt you back?
Over the last three years, I have frequently been asked whether I run workshops about the method in my Insights in Jazz eBook and free podcasts, Dropback.co.uk Podcasts. Therefore, I am sending this email to gauge what level of interest there might be. The workshops would be about analysing and memorising jazz chord progressions (and playing them in multiple keys).
If you are potentially interested in attending such a workshop (locations to be determined), contact me and let me know, together with any specific features you might like to see included.
If you are not interested, sorry to have bothered you. Please consider passing this message to any jazz players you know who might be interested.
The workshops are in the early planning stage, but my current expectation is that the first workshop will have the following characteristics:
- Located near Guildford, Surrey, UK (40 minutes train south of central London)
- Occur on an evening in August 2013
- Last approximately 2 hours, possibly followed by a jam session
- Hands on and practical in nature, with a focus on re-enforcing understanding through doing and playing
- Aimed at jazz players who improvise, but want to know how to increase their repertoire, memorise songs and free themselves from sheet music
- Possible Agenda:
- The importance of the aural tradition in jazz
- Introduction to the method
- Group analysis of a chord progression
- Memorisation of the chord progression
- Group playing of simple progressions in multiple keys
- There will be a fee (not yet known, to cover tutor time and costs)
Depending on the level of interest, workshops could be held at other locations. I look forward to hearing from you.
Best regards
John
www.dropback.co.uk
www.facebook.com/InsightsInJazz
www.twitter.com/jaelliott24
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Aural training is important and will help you hear the changes. The earlier you start the better. There's loads of courses but Aebersold used to do one.
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Gravediggers....
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Timefeel and hearing the changes was a big struggle for me when I was learning. I used to practice loading up random perfeormances of tunes (with the chart in front of me) half way through, and try to figure out where we were up to
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