Chord Method?

**BobD** · 09-01-2010, 02:50 PM

I'm currently working through William Leavitt's Guitar Method. I'm only in the first 20 pages of Vol. 1 and so far there has been only a few chords introduced. Is there another method I could use for learning chords and how to move from one chord to the next?

**patskywriter** · 09-01-2010, 04:12 PM

to me, the best way to learn chords is by learning songs. i find it hard to remember a new chord unless i learn to use it in context.

**Goofsus4** · 09-01-2010, 05:14 PM

Yes, learn songs for sure, that's the best way to improve chord knowledge.

But, in addition to your more formal training, you may also want to try this: take a simple ii V I in C, i.e. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7. You probably already know of at least a couple of places on the neck to play this progression and know the some standard grips for these chords.

Comp that cycle until you get fluid with it. Then try some substitutions/alterations to get a different sound. For instance:

For Dm7: try a Dm9

For G7: try a G13

For Cmaj7: try a Cmaj9

Just do one chord at a time. Figure out the voicing (chord dictionary or by knowledge of chord construction theory using musical intervals (best for learning)). Comp the cycle with the new chord until you get that smooth and the sound of that difference gets in your ears. Then sub out more until the whole cycle is using different chords. If you undestand chord contruction theory, then try coming up with your own voicings all over the neck and on different strings that allow you to play this progression and its subs without moving outside a few frets.

You can get more exotic with the subs and see how they sound. Here's something I cut out from a post on this forum a long time ago when I was first learning about subs and alterations of chords. It's a good guide. I'm sorry but I don't remember who posted it. If anyone recognizes it as theirs, I apologize for lifting it.

Substitution ideas:

1) Major chord - Any major of the same name will work.
example: for C Major -----> CMaj7, CMaj9, C6, C6/9, etc....

2) For Dom7

any Dom7 of the same root name will work
example: for C7 -----> Caug7, C9, C13, C7+9, C7b9, C7+5,C7b5, C7b5+9, C7sus4, etc....

b) You may count up a b5 and use a dom 7 chord type.
example: for G7 -------> Db7

c) You may count up a 5th and use a minor 7 chord.
example: for G7--------> D-7

3) For a minor chord - Any minor chord of the same root name will work.
example: for Cm -------> C-6, C-aug, Cm(Maj7), C-7, C-11, C-9, etc....

**Claudi** · 09-04-2010, 10:40 PM

Hi, goofsus4.
Well, the fact is that I can make some substitutions and tritone subs. I'm at work now and can't verify all you have writen here. I understand many, maybe the half, of these subs.
My question is: do all these subs belong to some scales? Because I don't think they all belong only to the diatonic and melodic minor. Do they belong to say the diminished scale and harmonic minor, etc...?

Thanks.

**FatJeff** · 09-05-2010, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Hi, goofsus4.
Well, the fact is that I can make some substitutions and tritone subs. I'm at work now and can't verify all you have writen here. I understand many, maybe the half, of these subs.
My question is: do all these subs belong to some scales? Because I don't think they all belong only to the diatonic and melodic minor. Do they belong to say the diminished scale and harmonic minor, etc...?

Thanks.

Easier to think "families of chords" than it is to think "scales." You can pretty much break down ANY chord to either tonic, predominant or dominant. Any chord in one of those families is pretty much interchangeable with any other in the same family.

**Claudi** · 09-05-2010, 11:08 AM

Hi, FatJeff! Thank you for the response.
I have another question about chords. When we're improvising a solo we have the chords notes as the most important ones, generally the root (if there's no bass), the 3rd and the 7th as the basic ones and also we can choose the rest of the notes in the scale if we want, and when it comes about chords there exists the chord progressions. When I improvise chords and I play a chord progression I feel like I'm playing a someone else's song/tune, and I don't like this feeling. I want to feel I'm improvising a chord progression and given that I and V are the most important chords in a progression am I doing it right if I improvise other chords, no matter which other ones that around the I and V? I mean that I take the I and V as the basic ones in most chord progressions and the rest, as I improvise, are choices. Sometimes I play chord progressions taking the I as the most important and leave the V or I only take the V as the most important and leave the I. Chord progressions are not a rule, they're simply like solo licks that a guitarist learns to put in his/her bag if s/he likes the lick in question, and s/he does the same with chord progressions; s/he take the ones s/he likes.

**Reg** · 09-05-2010, 11:46 AM

Wow... might be getting ahead of our selfs...there are chords, generally built in 3rds, from any collection of notes, a scale or any mode of that scale, (how you voice that chord is a different subject). That chord generally has function... or how the intervals in that chord want to resolve, there physically implied, whether your aware of this or not. There are chord substitutions, chords built from same collection of notes, (scale or mode), and generally, as FatJeff made reference to, same harmonic function, how the intervals resolve, this can actually happen or can be implied. Tonic, sub-dominant, Dominant and sub-dominant minor are basic types of harmonic function we deal with. Chord substitutions or modifications... adding, removing or changing chords of similar function are usually done to improve a chord progression, create something new of different. When you do this you should be aware of ...The existing harmonic rhythm, the root motion and always the melody- harmonic relationship.
When you begin to re-harmonize a existing chord progression, you need to be aware of what your doing...Anytime you add a chord from a different collection of notes, and all horizontal notes have a complete vertical implication, your re-harmonizing. These can be approach or passing chords, secondary and extended dominants, substitute dominants and subs of secondary and extended doms, related II-'s of those doms... and then the big door to re-harmonization...modal interchange... basically taking existing root note of chord and substituting a new chord from different mode or collection of notes. The simplest form or example would be...using the parallel minor tonality in a major key, so in key of C the normal diatonic IV chord is Fmaj.(lydian), In natural min. the IV chord is a Dorian Min. chord. So if you transpose that Nat Min scale pattern to start on C, the new IV degree would now be a F Minor chord.
Cmaj. C D E "F" G A B C
Cmin. C D Eb "F" G Ab Bb C
So you would, by means of modal interchange, substitute F- for Fmaj.
There are many means of control using modal interchange and there are many more techniques for re-harmonizing...there's a blues harmonic tradition etc... but there's a little more to chord substitutions than simple changing the chord... Although you can get lucky, and most of the time when your ear likes something there's a reason. And in reality most of the time who cares.... There are many who simple say if it sounds good it is ... ignorance can be bliss. If anyone is interested I would gladly try and explain in more detail... Best Reg

**Claudi** · 09-05-2010, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

There are many who simple say if it sounds good it is ... ignorance can be bliss. If anyone is interested I would gladly try and explain in more detail... Best Reg

Yes, come on! And thank you for the explanation.

**pdxjxm** · 09-05-2010, 12:04 PM

I highly recommend learning the CAGED system for chord and scale shapes/patterns. Once you know a pattern for major scale for example, it works for all keys, you just move to different frets. Same for chords, you learn a shape and move it around to change chords. Way easier than learning a zillion chords! You can google "caged" and find a lot of infor that way.
Have fun with it!
judy

**Claudi** · 09-05-2010, 12:24 PM

Yes, CAGED is my system too in order to create all the chords in whichever the scale I'm using, but in this forum I've read many times people asking what chord progression they should learn, and I think that after learning some chord progressions, given that in a scale there are only 7 chords, the possibilities are not too many, and that's why the response that they mostly get is "play as many tunes as possible", and that's because as I said with 7 notes the possibilities are not too many and they all can be learned with some tunes. That's a good way to internalize most tunes but what happens when you don't wanna play a tune but improvise whatever, I mean invent a tune at this very moment? I think that taking I and/or V as the pillar of the improvised chord progression is the best. If you take 3 chords taking as I said I and V and add the II then it's not an improvisation but II V I again, or if you take IV then you have IV V I and here we go again with another basic chord progression. Well, as I ramble I realize that unless I'm being unconscious of what I'm playing everything has been already invented.

But anyway, what happens if in a given moment I take VI V II? Here I only took V as the pillar. And what if I play II III I? Here I take I as the pillar though it's not the 1st chord that I play. That's my point.

**nomelite** · 09-05-2010, 02:06 PM

There a re lots of chord methods (and I bought almost all of them) : Ted Greene,Mickey Baker, Sal Salvador Jon Damian, Jody Fisher, Mike Christiansen, Rikky Rooksby, John Thomas, William leavitt, Johnny Smith, Don Mock,etc. I even have printed the cool pages of the defunct Guitar-Masters page . But from a progressive view an excellent book to learn jazz chord voicings and voice leading is The Guitar Chord Bible by Warren Nunes. Excellent stuff !

**Reg** · 09-05-2010, 02:19 PM

Isn't the caged system simple a tool to help become familiar with your fret board and doesn't worry about actual harmonic implications. I'm fairly ignorant of system, beyond caged or position areas of fret board... thanks Reg

**pdxjxm** · 09-05-2010, 02:26 PM

Yes, you are probably correct about that. I have found the CAGED system a place to start to learn both chords and the fretboard. There is so much more to learn it is overwhelming.
After spending 2 hours in the forum this morning (instead of practicing!) and seeing a lot of good things about the Mickey Baker books, I ordered 3 Mickey Baker books from Amazon.com! My morning is shot, but this has been very informative! I am fired up again!

**FatJeff** · 09-05-2010, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by pdxjxm

Yes, you are probably correct about that. I have found the CAGED system a place to start to learn both chords and the fretboard. There is so much more to learn it is overwhelming.
After spending 2 hours in the forum this morning (instead of practicing!) and seeing a lot of good things about the Mickey Baker books, I ordered 3 Mickey Baker books from Amazon.com! My morning is shot, but this has been very informative! I am fired up again!

I doubt you'll regret that decision if you work through those books. There is a huge ongoing thread here about those books, and (I believe) an entire external website dedicated to that method.

**Dad3353** · 09-06-2010, 11:17 AM

Mickey Baker

...and very useful it is, too, imho...

**nomelite** · 09-06-2010, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by pdxjxm

I ordered 3 Mickey Baker books from Amazon.com! My morning is shot, but this has been very informative! I am fired up again!

I believe it's just two books : the black and yellow (1st), the red and yellow (2nd), and the blue is an updated revision of the first.

**Claudi** · 09-06-2010, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Easier to think "families of chords" than it is to think "scales." You can pretty much break down ANY chord to either tonic, predominant or dominant. Any chord in one of those families is pretty much interchangeable with any other in the same family.

What do you mean by break down any chord? Do I have to think of I II V?
What about this tune? Why does does it have 4 dominants in only 5 chords?

http://aswas.files.wordpress.com/201...am-rogers2.pdf

Thanks in advance.

**noelma1117** · 09-06-2010, 09:39 PM

My introduction to Jazz Chords was Alan De Mause's Book - Guitar Power.
What stuck with me were the 6th-string root chords using strings 6,4,3,2
and 5th-string root chords using 5,4,3,2. Those are my meat & potato voicings for Major7, Minor7, Dom7, and m7b5, although my 5th-String Dominant 7 chord has now morphed into a 9th chord that easily becomes a 7#9 or 7b9 with minimal effort. 4th-String Root Chords using strings 4,3,2,1 come in handy as well.

What's really interesting with these chords is to work up the inversions.
For instance, with 6,4,3,2 move up the Guitar Neck so the 3rd is on the 6th string and locate the Root, 5th, & 7th notes on the strings above it. That's one inversion. Move up from there and locate the 5th note of the chord on the 6th String and then find the Root, 3rd, & 7th above that - another voicing. Finally, locate the 7th chord note on the 6th String and the Root, 3rd, & 5th above it - still another voicing.

The same process can work with the 5th & 4th-String Roots so you can actually come up with 12 voicings for these main chords.

**Claudi** · 09-06-2010, 10:41 PM

Hi, noelma1117.
Thanks for your reply but that's not what I'm looking for. Yes, I know lots of grips and their inversions for a Maj7, min7, dominant (M3/b7), min7b5, diminished (1 b3 b5 bb7), minor/major7 (b3 7), and major7/5+. These are the seven 7th chords in the diatonic, melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major scales. For the whole tone scale it would be 1 3 b5 b7, and for the diminished scale whwh..1 b3 5+ 7 or for hwhw... 1 3M/m 5 7.

What I'm talking about here are the chord progressions I could invent in a given tonality, though there's not much to invent since lots of chord progressions (if not all of them) have been analyzed here. Anyway, since I posted suggesting this in here I realized that anything I'd do with this could be fine. Might be whichever chord improvisation unconsciously but for sure a chord progression already invented by others.

Now I'm on the search of changing chord tonalities and chordal modes. This all will take long but I have no hurry at all. That's why I'm asking people to give/share their opinions on this all. Could be also that I can't express myself enough correctly. That's my fault.

**Claudi** · 09-06-2010, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Isn't the caged system simple a tool to help become familiar with your fret board and doesn't worry about actual harmonic implications. I'm fairly ignorant of system, beyond caged or position areas of fret board... thanks Reg

Anyway, don't they say that wherever you are "everything is under your fingers"?

**Claudi** · 09-06-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

Yes, learn songs for sure, that's the best way to improve chord knowledge.

But, in addition to your more formal training, you may also want to try this: take a simple ii V I in C, i.e. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7. You probably already know of at least a couple of places on the neck to play this progression and know the some standard grips for these chords.

Comp that cycle until you get fluid with it. Then try some substitutions/alterations to get a different sound. For instance:

For Dm7: try a Dm9

For G7: try a G13

For Cmaj7: try a Cmaj9

Just do one chord at a time. Figure out the voicing (chord dictionary or by knowledge of chord construction theory using musical intervals (best for learning)). Comp the cycle with the new chord until you get that smooth and the sound of that difference gets in your ears. Then sub out more until the whole cycle is using different chords. If you undestand chord contruction theory, then try coming up with your own voicings all over the neck and on different strings that allow you to play this progression and its subs without moving outside a few frets.

You can get more exotic with the subs and see how they sound. Here's something I cut out from a post on this forum a long time ago when I was first learning about subs and alterations of chords. It's a good guide. I'm sorry but I don't remember who posted it. If anyone recognizes it as theirs, I apologize for lifting it.

Substitution ideas:

1) Major chord - Any major of the same name will work.
example: for C Major -----> CMaj7, CMaj9, C6, C6/9, etc....

2) For Dom7

any Dom7 of the same root name will work
example: for C7 -----> Caug7, C9, C13, C7+9, C7b9, C7+5,C7b5, C7b5+9, C7sus4, etc....

b) You may count up a b5 and use a dom 7 chord type.
example: for G7 -------> Db7

c) You may count up a 5th and use a minor 7 chord.
example: for G7--------> D-7

3) For a minor chord - Any minor chord of the same root name will work.
example: for Cm -------> C-6, C-aug, Cm(Maj7), C-7, C-11, C-9, etc....

Yes, now I got it. I took my paper with the schemes with the intervals for the scales and saw that. I get it but I still have to internalize so many things and bring them to the fretboard... Thank you goofsus4. I liked this post of yours. I suppose it contains most of what I was looking for.

**Claudi** · 09-07-2010, 01:35 AM

Hey, noelma1117. If you're interested in what I was after click on this link. It's really interesting.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...html#post96087

**Goofsus4** · 09-07-2010, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Yes, now I got it. I took my paper with the schemes with the intervals for the scales and saw that. I get it but I still have to internalize so many things and bring them to the fretboard... Thank you goofsus4. I liked this post of yours. I suppose it contains most of what I was looking for.

Glad it gave you some ideas. And I'm also glad that others with a much better knowledge of theory than I have answered your original question about the chord/scale relationships. As I said, that wasn't my list. I got that from another forum post a few years ago.