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Does anyone have any secrets or methods to practice comping out that are out of the ordinary? (ordinary = sitting and just playing the chords over and over with a metronome)
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06-07-2010 11:38 PM
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how about dressing up like a pirate and then sitting and practicing with a metronome?
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But seriously, the only thing that would be more interesting would be playing along with a recording. Are you using different inversions or are you only using a few chord forms and moving all over the neck. Learn all your inversions and then figure out how to play the changes with the least amount of left hand movement possible, then put it to the metronome. I find this interesting, but it's not really out of the ordinary. There really are no secrets or shortcuts if you want to be a great guitarist. Sooner or later your gonna have to sit with a metronome, and even more arduous, you'll have to start spelling every chord in every inversion on all parts of the neck. the closest thing to a secret would be getting a book like the one Fep mentioned, they'll give you examples of melody and walking bass approach notes, but your still gonna have to sit there and practice it.
Last edited by voelker; 06-08-2010 at 12:49 AM.
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Thanks Voelker that gives me a good idea about what I need to do but I was thinking if some other methods to vary it up a little because practicing the same things over an over gain the exact same way can be pretty dull (as I know from working on classical guitar solos for months at a time). I wasnt particularly looking for a shortcut.
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Yes it can, but nothing worth doing is going to be easy. I struggle with the same problems; The things that take the most time, put me to sleep. I used to look for more interesting ways to do stuff, but i just ended up wasting time. I Guess I could tell u my secret to getting over the urge to hurry my studies.
I started lessons with the head of jazz guitar performance at UW-milwaukee a while back. He wouldn't even talk about 7th chords and chord progressions untill I could easily play harmonized major scales (triads) in all 12 keys, in all 3 inversions, on all 4 string sets, first 1 octave on 1 stringset, then 2 octaves moveing through all stringsets. Then all diatonic suspensions from each triad. Now that much isn't even that tough... I have to be able to immediatly spell every triad inversion as i go. In other words; I should always know the pitch name and scale degree of every note I'm playing. I found this was very different from knowing the scales and knowing every note on the fretboard. I was having a really hard time sitting down and doing it. He busted my balls a few times about most guitarists being too lazy to truly master the building blocks of music on the fretboard. He told me to buy a book called, Pat Metheny: Interviews (haven't got it yet), but he said,
Pat Metheny practices, composes, or produces something 10 hours a day, everyday. In highschool his parents took his guitar away cuz he wouldn't do his homework. He stopped paying attention in school cuz he was practicing in his head. Now he plays with his eyes closed.
That's when it hit me, I always knew guitarists relied on shapes that other instruments don't have, but more importantly, we don't have to engage our brains as much if we don't want to. We can play something a few times and our fingers go, "OK, i know how to do this, let's move on to something else." But we don't internalize every aspect of it.
Metheny was lucky, he couldn't get it off his mind. I can see him sittin there; long curly hair, striped shirt, perfectly accurate with eyes closed. But what is he looking at on the back of his eyelids? Is it just a fretboard? Is it like a computer screen with a lead sheet and a bar across the top that flashes keys, chords, beats, pitch names, scale degrees, and sends a signal to the fingers? Whatever it is, it's all happening at once. He is dialed in, his brain and his senses are all on the same page.
It makes me sick to think about all the time i spent practicing chord progressions the last 15 years; more like time wasted practicing shape progressions. What could I have done with those songs if i had started learning this stuff when I was 11? How could I become obsessed enough to do it now? But the answer was simple; if I ever wanted to make a living playing and teaching, then there is nothing more important than internalizing this stuff right now.
Secrets:
-If you can't quickly spell what you're playing, turn the metronome off till you can.
-Don't try laying the 2nd block before you lay the 1st.
-Don't let your fingers practice something your brain doesn't completely understand.
-If you understand what you practice it's easier to remember and takes less practice.
-If you know pitch names/scale degrees for all inversions, all over the fretboard, then you can play something different everytime.
-Get a good teacher if you don't alreadyLast edited by voelker; 06-08-2010 at 06:13 AM.
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Really good answer. Thank you.
Originally Posted by voelker
I recently read an old interview with Barney Kessel. He said he was made to learn the notes and their sequences in all chords he played at an early age.
This is invaluable.
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Originally Posted by voelker
This is seriously the funniest thing I've ever read on this forum.
Thanks!
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This is seriously the most profound thing I've read here at this forum. Originally Posted by voelker
Thanks, again!
So, would you suggest mastering all inversions, all string sets and all positions in one key first, before moving to other keys? Reason I ask is that I wonder, if by learning to associate certain locations within say each of the CAGED patterns with respect to numerical analysis, that it still amounts to relying on shapes and therefore attempting to "cheat". For example, If I know all my chord inversions at the 5th pos for the key of C and I'm thinking 1,3 5 7 instead of say c,e,g,b - when I move it 3 frets higher to Eb, can't I still just think in numbers instead of the actual note names?
I'm glad it's a guitaristic "problem" to seek these short cuts, I thought I was uncommonly thick to want to seek short cuts like the one above. I still have a hard time thinking note names when my mind switches to "music" mode.....Last edited by princeplanet; 06-08-2010 at 08:33 AM.
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So since we're ranting about stuff I'll give my little Rant about boring comping..........
I don't know about how most people teach comping. For me it was not something brought up a whole lot in lessons although clearly it was. I never spent a lot of time trying to work out crazy voicings for chords because it never seemed to be (to me) the point. People tend to not care about what your voicing was on that Gm7 chord, but they cared about where you put it, if it swung and had a clear and pleasant sound.
When I sit down with Students to explain comping I want them to understand that to me, Comping is so similar to regular blowing over changes that I do not tend to really distinguish between the two. Clearly however the role is different. As a Comper you are accompanying, you're not the primary voice and you play in the back, more supportive and in the vast majority of cases, harmonically. However, the entire time you are improvising. You should maintain that same level of excitment and joy and not look at comping as a chore. Many young players find comping to be boring and just wasted time between then and their next solo. To them I say, ask the Sax player how he feels as he has to sit and wait while you get to play!
When I am comping I do not sacrifice my own creativity. I am an interactive player so I don't have an issue with not being up front playing chorus after chorus and I enjoy the interplay. But in the end it must maintain certain aspects of the music.
To Comp well I think you need to be able to outline
-The Harmonic Progression and be open to it's intricate changes
-The Form must be clear, precise and not open to speculation
-There should be no question marks about the Time or Feel even if you choose to bend or play with that, it should be clear and obvious what you are doing at least to your fellow rhythm section first and soloist as well.
Lastly, and I feel most importantly on a conceptual basis is that as a comper I only have 2 Choices to make at any given time (outside of the fundamentals of playing changes good time, tone, form etc etc). Those two changes are to React or Not React.
I could react to something the drummer plays or the Soloist which could spin off a chain of events Musically that takes the solo one way or the other. I choose to not react and we go an entirely different direction. One cannot do all of one in an entire solo, it would be madness. But picking and choosing is what makes it the most fun.
As for Practicing Comping.
I think too many people see a metronome as a tool. When I get people to practice Comping fundamentals I get them to see the Metronome as a Duet Partner. Make the click swing and you are on the right track. Playing with recordings or cancelling out the piano track on a play-along is also very useful. Using one's imagination to create solos in their mind and comp to that is more advanced but works well.
In the end, much like the rest of this crazy Jazz thing the best place to practice this is with other people. Find another player and get him to blow for you for 10 minutes and just comp. I used to do this years ago and would find a bass player friend of mine and get him to play whatever tune he was working on and I would comp for him for a half hour to an hour sometimes.
Also nothing gets comping chops together better then working with Vocalists (bad or good). It teaches patience, sensitivity and voice leading.
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Thanks Jake. This is really good stuff. Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
On your web-site you say you are planning to add some video lessons, but are also asking for suggestions to topics. I would really like to see a few on the aspects of comping that you are talking about here.
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There's a bunch of jazz backing track mp3's available for free download on the Web. They often consist of bass, drums, and piano. They're usually mixed something like this: Bass - left channel, drums - middle, piano - right. So instead of soloing over them, you can turn the balance all the way over to the left, cutting out the piano, and comp in its place.
By the way, I play in a duo with a keyboard/sax player. When he plays sax, I am the entire rhythm section. It's quite demanding!Last edited by Tom Karol; 06-08-2010 at 09:47 AM.
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Barney Kessel interview excerpt:
http://guitarvideos.com/assets/pdf/13013dvd.pdf
"Kessel was tutored in a Federal Music Project of the WPA;
lessons went on four hours a day, six days a week, for three
months. This intensive training gave him a critical nudge in
the right direction, despite initial faltering. “I always felt like
a real stumble-bum,”he admitted to Arnie Berle (Guitar Player,
May 1982). “I remember when I learned to play the six-string
barre F chord, my fingers bled from working so hard at it.”
His hard work was augmented by what Kessel believes was
first-rate instruction in music theory as well as the mechanics
of playing guitar. “I learned major, minor, chromatic, and
augmented scales,” he told Berle. “I learned how to read; I
learned how to build up to four-note chords, and how to
build diatonic scales. I also learned something that is a very
important part of fingerboard study that I don’t see being
taught a lot today. My teacher insisted that as we learned to
play each chord, we had to learn the name of each note in
the chord, and we also had to know in which part of the
chord each note was. Like, which note was the 5th of the
chord, or the 3rd. This all happened in just those three months
in 1935.”
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Thanks Tom, Jake and Voelker Ill try to slowly learn everything until I understand it through and through. Except the problem I have isn't my lack of knowledge its applying it to my instrument or at least thats what I think.
Voelker its funny I learned my chord theory the same way as you. I memorized my triads CEG EGB GBD BDF DFA so on.. Then I just memorized where I put the accidentals
Like I would categorize them
No accidentals : CEG GBD so on
a0125*-+ kijjuuuuuuiuii89
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For what it's worth, here are some things I do - some may be "different" to you:
Learn the melody to the song, and then try playing the melody and comping at the same time. This is not the same as chord melody exactly. I'm not harmonizing the melody notes. I'm just playing them as a single note phrase that connects the chord changes. Then I play the chords in a comping style rhythm when the melody is resting. I like doing this with songs that have whole or half notes for a measure. Like Autumn Leaves or How High the Moon, let's say. I'll play the melody, then sort of scat with the comping rhythm and voicings during the bar or half bar where the melody lingers. So it would sort of sound like "How high the moooon, bah, doody dah dee." And the bah doody dad dee part is played with chord punches. I'll just keep doing chorus after chorus of that and start playing with the melody. I find that if I can embellish the melody so that the melody line gets longer and I can still get back into comp mode in time that it really helps my abililty to improvise rhythmically and still keep time.
Another thing I do is to just take a simple ii V I movement and just play it endlessly through any and all key changes that come to my mind. Then I'll begin embellishing and making substitutions for some of the chords. So, I might play plain old Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, then next time through I might do a Dm9 Db9 Cmaj9, then a Dm7/Dm9 G11/G7#5 Cmaj7. Then I will add turnarounds. The main thing is to try to play in good time while switching things up continuously adding more chords to the bar, making subs, but always keeping in time and going on for as long as you can without blowing up. This is not song-specific, but a general rhythm/mind/improv developing thing.Last edited by Goofsus4; 06-08-2010 at 10:48 AM.
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I've posted this mind-map earlier, but I'll include it here as well. This is my "notebook" for things to work on while I'm practicing comping.
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That's very interesting. Originally Posted by gersdal
I've posted this mind-map earlier, but I'll include it here as well. This is my "notebook" for things to work on while I'm practicing comping.
I'd like to look at that more closely but it's kind of small.
Can you send it to me or tell me where to find it in a bigger format?
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Small? You're joking, right Originally Posted by Drumbler
If you really need a bigger format, you can zoom a bit. If that is not sufficient I'll off course will make a bigger one.
Check out this one!Last edited by gersdal; 06-08-2010 at 12:58 PM.
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Sure you can think of it however you want, depends on the kind of guitarist you want to be. But it's still not the same as your brain immediatly telling you C,E,G,B to Eb,G,Bb,D. Thinking only scale degree(1,3,5,7) is fine if you never change chords. How did you know that three frets up was Eb? Because you probably know the note names on the E string very well. You had to learn notes to a certain extent to get that far. But you can go alot farther if you can think about 3 or 4 notes at a time. So if your playing Cmaj7 arps and you hit the 5th(G) at the end of the bar, your brain will know that G is the 3rd of Ebmaj7 and keep flowing through Ebmaj7 arps starting on the G(G,Bb,D,Eb)? In the middle of a song there is not much time to find the nearest Eb and figure out the 3,5,7. Originally Posted by princeplanet
and yes, definitly learn one key at a time, remember don't lay the 2nd brick before the 1st. Do the key of C 1st, then move one key each direction in the circle of 5ths so you are only adding one sharp/flat at a time. F(1 flat)/G(1sharp) then Bb(2flats)/D(2sharps) ...etc. this way each key builds on the last and they only get easier and easier.
And don't let yourself rush, the first few keys may each take a week to beat into your head, but don't move on untill you can do it at a decent pace without mistakes. Arpeggiate the triads and sing the note/pitch name with it.
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also i found it helpful to practice in groups of 4 triads. which creates movement up to the 4th or down to the 5th.
C,Dm,Em,F,
Start on strings EAD, spell the triads up and back down, first in root position then in first and second inversion, then repeat that on Strings ADG, DGB, GBE, then go back to EAD and do the same with the next 4 triads.
Dm,Em,F,G
Em,F,G,Am
F,G,Am,Bdim
G,Am,Bdim,C
Am,Bdim,C,Dm
Bdim,C,Dm,Em
then try doing the full 2 octaves.Last edited by voelker; 06-09-2010 at 01:55 AM.
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Damn it, you're right, we should all be able to sing the pitch names to every note in every chord in every key in every position..... but my brain hurts just thinking about it.....
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Ahh you must have read my other post. That's good you can spell triads. I assume you understand their interval structures then, major(3rd,b3rd), minor(b3rd,3rd), or diminished(b3,b3). Now that your playing jazz you can get rid of the space and the extra G. Do you understand why I said it's good to memorize the entire major scale in a diatonic cycle of 3rds, CEGBDFAC...repeating...CEGBDFAC? Originally Posted by Christien
This one pattern is the key to spelling all chords. It may have been confusing since I only made examples of Cmaj9(CEGBD) and G9(GBDFA), while skipping Em7b9(EGBDF), but as long as you understand intervals, chord structures, and avoid notes, you can start on any note and build triads, 7th, 9th, 11th or 13th chords.
G13=GBDFA[avoid C]E
A13=AC#EGB[avoid D]F#
If you understand all the things i just talked about, then knowledge may not be the problem, but knowledge of something all over the fretboard is another story. Is that what your trying to say? Unfortunatly the answer to this situation is again, dress up like a pirate and master those triads all over the fretboard. Originally Posted by Christien
If you already understand and use inversions all over the fretboard? Then you shouldn't be seeing it as "Just sitting and playing the chords. There are a lot of things in need of attention: rhythm, dynamics, voice leading, walking bass approaches, passing chords, substitutions.
If your bored with all that for now, then Jake has your answer. You need to play with other people. The whole thing about reacting or not reacting, that's something you can't fully experience by yourself. Maybe you can react to a recording, but it won't react to you. Your really just acting. Its like a comedian who practices jokes but never goes on stage. He really doesn't know which jokes work and which jokes need work, maybe his timing needs work. When i go a long time without playing with other people, It's like a release of this build up of everything i've been practicing and i leave knowing what i want to practice next.
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Thanks Voelker that post was very informative. I understand basically everything you've said with the exception of avoid notes. I can never get those right for some reason when building chords, except I've never really spent time learning them. Transferring from classical, I don't have very much experience with playing chords, but my theory is pretty solid. Right now I have to get all the chords and inversions engraved in to my fingers so I can make the changes up to pace. In classical we would spend months at a time playing what was written usually exactly the way its written, so there was always no need to learn a ton of chords and inversions. At least playing wise.
Last edited by Christien; 06-09-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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Get your skills together... what ever...or how ever you want. You must be able to voice any note... on top of any chord. There are many standard line cliches and standard re-harmonization you should be able to play, again with any note on top. By re-harms I mean there are standard chord sequences which are used for single chords, or simple chord progressions. Anyway after you have your skills together, throw it all away and learn how to react as mentioned above. A some point you'll develop your own voicings that you hear. I never worry about actual notes in voicings, except my lead lines, which should be like a melody, counter melody or some type of groove line depending on context. The trick... is to be aware of both vertical and horizontal aspect of every thing you play...and be able to hear everything you play... before you play it... it's pretty simple, it's fun, you can then really improvise. It does take time to get to that point... but it's not quantum mechanics and you don't have to know everything, just be able to cover what I mentioned above. I have to go to gig, if you want more details let me know. Best Reg
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Thanks Voelker you opened my eyes. Great stuff.
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06-11-2010, 01:04 PM #25Baltar Hornbeek GuestThis is the key. Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
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