The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    depends what you are trying to accomplish - agree 4 part voicings are no good if you are attempting busier, more contrapuntal realizations or stuff with a faster harmonic rhythm,
    however 4 part harmony is fairly standard in 19th century guitar music, like Sor and it’s sort of essential if you want to do figuration preludes or Alberti- bass type figurations with a slower harmonic rhythm
    i think if that’s your aim Nicola is the perfect guy to listen to, he mostly realises in an early 19th century style. He makes some recommendations based on that.

    Whatever your stylistic priorities are, I agree developing textural options is very important (for anything actually, including jazz). This has been the main thing I’ve felt I’ve needed to work on in fact. One obvious place you can go to is the repertoire itself.

    John Mortensen suggests a good way to go with this is simply to take pieces of music you like and then take the textures through the RO. I have to say this a really fun practice activity.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-15-2022 at 03:28 PM.

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  3. #77

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    This is an excellent seminar

  4. #78

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    Something I'm working on at the moment - standards as preludes


  5. #79

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    some useful 'chunks' in this Guiliani study

    Partimento-screenshot-2022-10-30-13-12-51-png

  6. #80

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    I was messing with RO substitutions this morning in both ascending and descending penta and tetrachords.

    Fascinating stuff and it's all about your personal preference as to whether you like a brighter or darker sound for those subs.

    Great fun trying to play and compare them all.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    I was messing with RO substitutions this morning in both ascending and descending penta and tetrachords.

    Fascinating stuff and it's all about your personal preference as to whether you like a brighter or darker sound for those subs.

    Great fun trying to play and compare them all.
    Can you give some examples of what you've been working on?

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Can you give some examples of what you've been working on?
    The RO chapter in the Ijzerman book.

    Ascending pentachord. Middle voice of 4 moves up or down to middle voice of 5. Nothing fancy a out that but sub 5/3, 6/5 or 7/5 for 6/3 on 4.

    Descending pentachord 4 is a 4/2 chord. No need to prepare but resolve to a sixth.

    Ascending tetrachord. Raise 6 & 7 in minor. Suspend 6. Use diminished 5/3 on 7.

    Descending tetrachord. Raise 6 on 6 in major. 7/6 suspension on 6.

    Fascinating stuff

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    The RO chapter in the Ijzerman book.

    Ascending pentachord. Middle voice of 4 moves up or down to middle voice of 5. Nothing fancy a out that but sub 5/3, 6/5 or 7/5 for 6/3 on 4.

    Descending pentachord 4 is a 4/2 chord. No need to prepare but resolve to a sixth.

    Ascending tetrachord. Raise 6 & 7 in minor. Suspend 6. Use diminished 5/3 on 7.

    Descending tetrachord. Raise 6 on 6 in major. 7/6 suspension on 6.

    Fascinating stuff
    I have that book but haven't looked at it much..

    Here's a favourite of mine

    Am Am6 Bm Bm6 C+ C6 Dm7 Dm6 E Dm6 Dm E/D Cmaj7 Am/C Bm7b5 E E7 Am(maj7) Am

  10. #84

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    A couple things I've noticed as well
    the major key sort of divides into two halves. So we can go, for instance

    C G7/D C7/E F G/F (Em7) C/E Dm7 G7 C
    Notice how nice that Bb-A-B-C thing is!

    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G F/A G7/B C
    Or even
    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G D7/A G7/B C

    This is congruent with the 18th century way of solfeging a major scale

    Do re mi fa sol re mi fa
    instead of
    do re mi fa sol la ti do.

    Mi Fa can always take 6 b5 - 5 3

    OTOH Fa mi can always take #4 2 - 6
    (and Re can always take #6 4 3)

    C D7/C G/B D7/A G G7/F C/E Dm7 G7 C

    So two identical harmonisations of the Fa Mi Re Do/Sol tetrachord

    We kind of get a couple of cadences in G followed by a couple of cadences in C. It's actually impossible to tell that you are in C until you hear the G7/F.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    A couple things I've noticed as well
    the major key sort of divides into two halves. So we can go, for instance

    C G7/D C7/E F G/F (Em7) C/E Dm7 G7 C
    Notice how nice that Bb-A-B-C thing is!

    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G F/A G7/B C
    Or even
    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G D7/A G7/B C

    This is congruent with the 18th century way of solfeging a major scale

    Do re mi fa sol re mi fa
    instead of
    do re mi fa sol la ti do.

    Mi Fa can always take 6 b5 - 5 3

    OTOH Fa mi can always take #4 2 - 6
    (and Re can always take #6 4 3)

    C D7/C G/B D7/A G G7/F C/E Dm7 G7 C

    So two identical harmonisations of the Fa Mi Re Do/Sol tetrachord

    We kind of get a couple of cadences in G followed by a couple of cadences in C. It's actually impossible to tell that you are in C until you hear the G7/F.
    Crickey Christian, as if I don't have a enough things to get up to speed with. I'd better add Solfege to the list

    I must experiment with proper voicings for your ideas. I'm trying to play through everything using spread triads.

    Interesting variations on the tetrachord and interesting that you are approaching this from a solfege perspective.

    Just shows that there is more than one road that leads to Rome....

    Though the Ijzerman book is very good. At least I think so. I must reconcile all the ideas that I played around with this morning before moving on.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Crickey Christian, as if I don't have a enough things to get up to speed with. I'd better add Solfege to the list

    I must experiment with proper voicings for your ideas. I'm trying to play through everything using spread triads.

    Interesting variations on the tetrachord and interesting that you are approaching this from a solfege perspective.

    Just shows that there is more than one road that leads to Rome....

    Though the Ijzerman book is very good. At least I think so. I must reconcile all the ideas that I played around with this morning before moving on.
    Well it’s simple really

    go up a half step? 6 5 - 5 3
    go down a half step? #4 2 - 6 3

    “mi fa, fa mi is all there is in music”. Bachs name has two half steps of course B-A-C-H (Bb A C B) so he would say that.

    hey even Pat gets it haha
    Partimento-19b8a5db-7522-44cc-801e-af90d3c9e28c-jpeg

  13. #87

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    Fancy a trip to the far future of the mid 19th C?

    C D7/C G/B C7/Bb F/A Bb/Ab Eb/Gb

    modulate to any key hahaha!!!!

    there’s a bit like this in Waltz for Debby but the voice leading isn’t what they would have used … the #4 goes up and the 1 goes down…

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Fancy a trip to the far future of the mid 19th C?

    C D7/C G/B C7/Bb F/A Bb/Ab Eb/Gb

    modulate to any key hahaha!!!!

    there’s a bit like this in Waltz for Debby but the voice leading isn’t what they would have used … the #4 goes up and the 1 goes down…
    lol...

  15. #89

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    Do you have the Nicholas Baragwanath book Christian?

    If so, what do you think of it?

    Thanks

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Do you have the Nicholas Baragwanath book Christian?

    If so, what do you think of it?

    Thanks
    I do have it (on kindle). It’s very interesting and worth reading but kind of suffers from an issue that many such books have (from my perspective) which is that kind of combines the functions of an academic text (referencing original sources) and a how to manual. Which is not to say it’s densely written, far from it, but it’s not quite a step by step guide like JM’s books.

    Sanguinetti’s book has the same problem and Gjerdigen’s to some extent. There’s a reason for this, the people working in this area want to be clear about what is found in the sources and what is their own interpolation or inference; which is very important to people studying the historical context and trying to avoid their own biases but not something that’s not so useful or interesting to someone studying ‘how to.’

    So while there’s a lot of info it is important not to expect too much in the way of a step by step how to manual in the way that Mortensen’s is. This reflects the people who wrote the books - JM is less an academic and more a piano teacher while GS, NB, RG etc are more academics. However I also understand Baragwanath is active in teaching this, so hopefully more material will come out. I think there’s enough in his book to get you started.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-06-2023 at 06:41 AM.

  17. #91

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    Thanks so much Christian.

    It is exactly for those reasons that I prefer the Ijzerman book to the Sanguinetti book ( although the GS book is very good too).

    I love the schemata section in the JM Historical Improvisation book. Do this, then do this and, viola, an instant interesting piece of music.

    I downloaded a few PDF's last night about 18th century solfeggio. Will read them today and then will make a decision whether or not to buy the NB book soon.

    Scholarly books aren't cheap, even on Kindle!!

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    A couple things I've noticed as well
    the major key sort of divides into two halves. So we can go, for instance

    C G7/D C7/E F G/F (Em7) C/E Dm7 G7 C
    Notice how nice that Bb-A-B-C thing is!

    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G F/A G7/B C
    Or even
    C G7/D C7/E F(6) and then G D7/A G7/B C

    This is congruent with the 18th century way of solfeging a major scale

    Do re mi fa sol re mi fa
    instead of
    do re mi fa sol la ti do.

    Mi Fa can always take 6 b5 - 5 3

    OTOH Fa mi can always take #4 2 - 6
    (and Re can always take #6 4 3)

    C D7/C G/B D7/A G G7/F C/E Dm7 G7 C

    So two identical harmonisations of the Fa Mi Re Do/Sol tetrachord

    We kind of get a couple of cadences in G followed by a couple of cadences in C. It's actually impossible to tell that you are in C until you hear the G7/F.
    Ok, now I think that I understand.

    You are mutating two hexachords.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Thanks so much Christian.

    It is exactly for those reasons that I prefer the Ijzerman book to the Sanguinetti book ( although the GS book is very good too).

    I love the schemata section in the JM Historical Improvisation book. Do this, then do this and, viola, an instant interesting piece of music.

    I downloaded a few PDF's last night about 18th century solfeggio. Will read them today and then will make a decision whether or not to buy the NB book soon.

    Scholarly books aren't cheap, even on Kindle!!
    Just reading those PDF's now. One of them is by NB. The 10 lesson PDF. That might be enough for me as partimento is a big enough rabbit hole

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Ok, now I think that I understand.

    You are mutating two hexachords.
    Sure, why not?

    I enjoy that this makes me sound like a mad scientist

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Thanks so much Christian.

    It is exactly for those reasons that I prefer the Ijzerman book to the Sanguinetti book ( although the GS book is very good too).

    I love the schemata section in the JM Historical Improvisation book. Do this, then do this and, viola, an instant interesting piece of music.

    I downloaded a few PDF's last night about 18th century solfeggio. Will read them today and then will make a decision whether or not to buy the NB book soon.

    Scholarly books aren't cheap, even on Kindle!!
    I’ll have a look and see what Ijzerman has to say about diminutions because the Sanguinetti is flipping useless on this. Just give me some licks bro!
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-06-2023 at 06:55 AM.

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Just reading those PDF's now. One of them is by NB. The 10 lesson PDF. That might be enough for me as partimento is a big enough rabbit hole
    Nice, I’ve not seen those. Can you shoot us a link? (Public comment on the thread might be useful in case there’s some other nutters lurking)

  23. #97

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    Not sure about this book haha

    On Dowland’s ‘come again, sweet love doth now invite…’

    “Example 1.7 shows an excerpt of a four-part madrigal by the English composer John Dowland (c. 1563–1626). The text tells about a person who is grieving over his lost love.”

    Does it now? The subtext is not exactly subtle in this one and also present in the, ahem, climactic ascending sequence detailed in the extract.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    You are mutating two hexachords.
    I just hope it doesn’t escape from the lab and run amok.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I just hope it doesn’t escape from the lab and run amok.
    Bwahahahhahhahahahah

    Fools! I’ll show them all!

  26. #100

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    I'm not sure how to link to a PDF as when I click on the link in Google it takes me directly to the PDF but just Google 18th century solfege and click on the University of Nottingham PDF.

    Christian I've send it to you via electronic mail to save you the trouble of Googling it.