Classical with pick

[ronjazz]

So, R,
No one is trying to pigeonhole CG, but would it be fair to say that playing CG and its repertoire with a pick the exception rather than the norm? Someone here got the idea that I'm criticizing playing with a pick. Not true. However, it is in no way standard practice or taught, to my knowledge, in any CG degreed program.
Play live . . . Marinero

Yes, it is the exception. And as jazzers, why should we be interested in norms or standard practices? We can't even agree on how to hold a pick or whether to alternate or sweep, or whether to use the LH thumb to make chords.

[Rob MacKillop]

…and I sincerely hope we never do agree!

[Marinero]

Yes, it is the exception. And as jazzers, why should we be interested in norms or standard practices? We can't even agree on how to hold a pick or whether to alternate or sweep, or whether to use the LH thumb to make chords.

Hi, R,
We're on the same page as I clearly stated in my initial post(#8). However, my only point is that Mikkos RH technique(pick) is not Classical as you know from you're previous extensive training. By the way, I'm truly sorry for your hand problem but you've seemed to have found a good solution. I lost a knuckle in a bar fight in the 80's which didn't effect my saxophone playing, after it healed, but took years to properly retrain the muscles/tendons/nerves in my RH for CG. Ahhh . . . the memories of youth!
Play live . . . with all your knuckles . . . Marinero

[Marinero]

…and I sincerely hope we never do agree!

Hi, R,
"When two people think the same about everything . . . there's only one person thinking(paraphrase)." Winston Churchill

[MikkoKarhula]

Mikko,
Which classical guitar did you play so beautifully?
is it Yamaha?
Best
Kris

Hi Kris!

It's Yamaha Cg182sf, flamenco guitar. I like it because it has little bit same character like gypsy jazz guitars. There is only one problem. B string has unhealthy fret buzz. I have to bring to local luther some day when I get money.

Lähetetty minun SM-A405FN laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[kris]

Hi Mikko,
Thanks for the info.
Best
Kris

[Stringswinger]

Mikko, you sound great.

In the 1970's I studied with two of America's top studio guitarists (Allen Hanlon and Milt Norman) and both played their classical guitars with a pick. I also studied classical guitar (and learned traditional classical technique) and these days, I go back and forth from fingerstyle to a pick on both my classical guitar and my archtops. (I only use a pick with my Gypsy guitars as i do not care for their tone when played fingerstyle).

It is all good. The only rule is to be both musical and inspired. And it sounds like you are that!

[MikkoKarhula]

Mikko, you sound great.

In the 1970's I studied with two of America's top studio guitarists (Allen Hanlon and Milt Norman) and both played their classical guitars with a pick. I also studied classical guitar (and learned traditional classical technique) and these days, I go back and forth from fingerstyle to a pick on both my classical guitar and my archtops. (I only use a pick with my Gypsy guitars as i do not care for their tone when played fingerstyle).

It is all good. The only rule is to be both musical and inspired. And it sounds like you are that!

That was so kind. Thank you very much!

It's very inspiring to play classical style with pick. I feel that I'm free to throw jazz, etno anything into that same soup.

Cheers, Mikko

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[MikkoKarhula]

Mikko, your music speaks for itself and when that is the sound you hear in your head then that's a fact and you bring it out beautifully. However, I clearly hear the pick-attack and - this is a most subjective observation - I think you could improve your picking technique to further minimize these artifacts. If it doesn't bother you, then that's perfectly fine.
In case you haven't already checked him out I suggest you listen to some recordings by one of my personal favorites on the nylonstring guitar : Kevin Seddiki of France. He has a degree in classical guitar but is a constant wanderer between many different worlds. His tone is mesmerizing, regardless of his use of nails or pick, as I've just recently witnessed during a concert performance of Kevin and his current Duo Partner Jean Louis Matinier on accordion. He used a small pick off and on but only for some rapid-fire single-note passages.

Thank you! In some situations I try to avoid pick noise and in some situations put it more. That Kevin is wonderful. Definetly will listen him more. He seems to have little bit similar aesthetics that I try to put on my playing. Thank you for the hint!

Cheers, Mikko

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[mr. beaumont]

Here's some great sounding pick on nylon strings...

I grew up in a predominantly Mexican neighborhood, and I think everybody's house had a nylon string guitar (or a visiting relative with one) and they were almost always played with a pick.

[Rob MacKillop]

I’m beginning to wonder what the definition of classical music is on this forum. I’m not challenging anyone, just curious.

Is it this?

This?

Or this?

The thing is, I wouldn’t call any of it classical. What IS classical music to forum members here?

[kris]

I’m beginning to wonder what the definition of classical music is on this forum. I’m not challenging anyone, just curious.

Is it this?

This?

Or this?

The thing is, I wouldn’t call any of it classical. What IS classical music to forum members here?

For me it is modern classical music.

[Rob MacKillop]

What is? Because modern classical music can sound very different from what I hear here.

[Rob MacKillop]

It seems that what is called classical today is the language of Paganini: lots of basic two octave arpeggios, sometimes arpeggios with descending bass lines, all very tonal, or some Bach-like motifs. Decidedly not modern classical.

But listen to Django’s so-called improvisation, which seems to sound very similar to Segovia’s early commissioned repertoire by Turina and Ponce. They were both contemporaries of Django, not the avante-garde by any means, but still modern classical for his day. Django had astonishing ears. His take on that repertoire could be played in concert halls to classical audiences.

It seems to me that today’s so-called classical-influenced jazz-guitar music is retrograde, a backwards step from what Django was doing.

I’m curious what a contemporary take on contemporary classical music could be when played on an archtop or GJ guitar, post Stravinsky and Schoenberg, post Peter Maxwell Davis.

If there is a problem (and I’m not saying there is) it could be twofold: modern classical music (avante-garde aside) also seems to be lost, looking backwards, and therefore jazz musicians think that’s what classical music is: old stuff, unchallenging, inoffensive… oh, and flashy!

Sorry, just musing off the top of my head.

[RJVB]

Classical is what you decide to call classical, no? There are ditties we now include in classical music that were the same kind of popular music as jazz, the things you find in the aforementioned Mel Bay books or the pieces composed and played by the likes of Mike Dowling, Laurence Juber, Darrell Scott, Michael Watts (just to name a few guitarists). I'm pretty certain they are the modern-day equivalents of the likes of Sor c.s. or someone like Kapsberger a bit earlier.

Or maybe classical music is what you study as such in conservatory, and/or learn to write there. Oh wait, that still boils down to "whatever we call it".

Most if not all existing classical music that was written for guitar doesn't call for a pick. Plectrum lutes fell in disuse because not well suited enough to play the polyphonic music when that came in vogue (dixit a lutenist friend of mine!). But what's to stop a current-day classical composer from calling for using a pick on classical guitar (which is apparently exactly the case for the piece in the OP)? And what's to stop anyone from using a classical guitar to honk out cowboy chords?
Honestly, I prefer the sound of nylon strings played with a wooden or horn pick to the plasticky sound resulting from playing with finger nails.

[kris]

[Donplaysguitar]

I’m beginning to wonder what the definition of classical music is on this forum. I’m not challenging anyone, just curious.

Is it this?

This?

Or this?

The thing is, I wouldn’t call any of it classical. What IS classical music to forum members here?

Classical, or "European Art Music" frequently refers to the Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist - and beyond.

Soooooo, Stravinsky? Yes. Joaquin Rodrigo? Yes. Leo Brouwer? Yes.

Some people also refer to the "Common Practice Period". For a classical guitar composer short list I would include: Sor, Carcassi, Aguado, Carulli, Giuliani. But of course it keeps going from there...

[Stringswinger]

Classical, or "European Art Music" frequently refers to the Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist - and beyond.

Soooooo, Stravinsky? Yes. Joaquin Rodrigo? Yes. Leo Brouwer? Yes.

Some people also refer to the "Common Practice Period". For a classical guitar composer short list I would include: Sor, Carcassi, Aguado, Carulli, Giuliani. But of course it keeps going from there...

Tarrega is not on your short list? He sure is on mine.

[Rob MacKillop]

Whatever we call it, my point was that Django mastered the contemporary classical style (with a few choice jazz touches) in this “improv”, and we seem to have reduced “classical” to a few cliches since then, no matter how well played.

[Rob MacKillop]

Stringswinger, Tárrega is regarded as a late Romantic-era composer, not strictly of the classical era, which I think is Don’s point.

[Donplaysguitar]

Quite right Rob, I stopped around 1850, then lept forward to the 20th century.

Tarrega, Regondi, Villa-Llobos, Turina, Torroba, even Ponce in collaboration with Segovia... lots of others to include, thank goodness.

[RJVB]

I’m curious what a contemporary take on contemporary classical music could be when played on an archtop or GJ guitar, post Stravinsky and Schoenberg, post Peter Maxwell Davis.

Lou Harrison?

(I'm partial to resonators, and for just intonation )

Reminiscence, Reflections, and Resonance: The Just Intonation Resophonic Guitar and Lou Harrison's Scenes from Nek Chand | Journal of the Society for American Music | Cambridge Core

[Rob MacKillop]

Both surely second-rate composers, just doodling with toys Of course, that could be said of most classical-guitar composers of any age: Sor was no Mozart, for instance, but he did write some beautiful guitar music.

Elliot Carter, on the other hand…

[Donplaysguitar]

Both surely second-rate composers, just doodling with toys Of course, that could be said of most classical-guitar composers of any age: Sor was no Mozart, for instance, but he did write some beautiful guitar music.

Elliot Carter, on the other hand…

Embarrassed to say that I don't know much about him, although I've heard the name. Did he write anything for The Guitar?

[Stringswinger]

Stringswinger, Tárrega is regarded as a late Romantic-era composer, not strictly of the classical era, which I think is Don’s point.

That still confuses me as Don included the Romatic era in his definition of classical music.

Stopping at 1850 seems arbitrary, but as we know, labeling music almost always is subject to the arbitrary whims of those doing the labeling.

Here is Don's definition posted earlier: "Classical, or "European Art Music" frequently refers to the Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist - and beyond."