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Very nice...any Bach partitas/sonatas that would adapt well to flat pick or perhaps hybrid style?
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07-21-2018 10:59 AM
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violin and cello repertoire is our best bet for plectrum or hybrid styles.
Originally Posted by alltunes
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The violin and cello repertoire sounds superb on the guitar. often better than on the original instruments. the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.
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My wife laughs at me when I try to play the Bach cello prelude 1 on guitar (she plays cello) so I make sure she's out.
You need a seven string for that one, really.Last edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:08 PM.
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It can do, yes Originally Posted by ronjazz
You are off your rocker.often better than on the original instruments.
Yeah, Chaconne might be Spanish, or maybe even Caribbean or South America, no one seems to be absolutely certain. Chaconnes always have a repeated ground (bass or chords), but were originally major key and bawdy in nature. Monteverdi introduced the minor tonality and the descending lamento bass, apparently, and gave it a more serious tone.the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.
Another distinguishing feature of the Chaconne is its triple time meter and accent on the second beat. You can still hear this in the Bach Chaconne.
I would urge anyone interested in the history to check out Alex Ross's (the Rest is Noise) article:
Alex Ross: The Rest Is Noise: chaconaLast edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:20 PM.
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Well "better than than the original instruments" might be subjective, but many of the Bach works for solo instruments (Cello and violin, in addition of course to those for the lute) sound great on the guitar. Some lie well on the fretboard, and some can be made to work with a key change or perhaps a lowered 6th string. The violin and cello works have movements that are nearly all single lines, and can be played with a pick as well as fingers.
A fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.
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They do sound good if you simply play the notes, that’s the beauty of it. Originally Posted by cmajor9
Yeah I remember spending hours playing through them for my own entertainment. Bach is always an education...
The way a jazz musician can use these pieces is different from a classical musician.
As a performance of Bach’s music Gilads interpretation of the two part invention obviously didn’t impress Jonah (who I regard as a bit of a Bach aficionado) but obviously is very impressive guitar playing and a great exercise for him as a jazz player. All these things have their value.
Ha I must try thatA fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2018 at 06:57 AM.
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Believe me most cellist or violinsts do not even know that somebody plays (or ever played) Bach on guitar!!!! (Sego- what? Segovia? Oh it's a nice plice where we had great gazpacho last summer!)
As per playing Bach or Handel or Mozart on guitar I remember an Interview of Barthold Kuijken (by the way one of the greatest modern baroque players, and an author of a great book)....
He was asked what baroque transverse repertory he thinks is good to play on 'flauto di voce' (for reference 'flauto di voce' is the baroque recorder in D that allegedly was invented to perform transverse baroque flute (also in D) repertory without transposition - which was usual in alto recorder in F).
And he said: None...
The astonished interviewr began to ask why... and Kuijken explained that diapason is not the only thing that needed for playing this repertory... that 'flauto di voce' in many cases would sound like a mezzo that tries to sing high soprano etc. etc.
To me there is a lot of misunderstanding in performance of Bach on guitar on elctric guitar, on jazz guitar, dance, hip-hop, gipsy, rockabilly guitar...
It's all like playing D-minor Toccata and Fugue on anything that sounds... the piece that is one of the weakest Bach and in my opinion is most probably very young Bach (or may be even fake).
You know Segovia did not say: let's all play Bach on guitar. Segovia did not play Classical guitar. He was the only guy who played at all.. he is continuation of Spanish guitar tradition - to which neither great master Bream, no mediocracy Williams have nothing to do.
Segovia is the instrument himself.
After Segovia only Ghiglia seems to be able to make me listen to this instrumen and forget about it.
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I can enjoy listening to Bach on just about anything.
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A certain forum member has also been known to get up to this kind of thing.
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I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense playing that music on a tenor banjo because of the tuning so you have that low C.... That's pretty awesome playing and musicianship...
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As per arrangement...
Many things become important and signufucant when you get deeper into the subject..
The speculation about 'abstract mathematical beauty' of Bach come to nothing once you really hear and dig his Cantatas, Passions, Oratorio. The man who paint text euth such an intensive and passionate musucal colours of meaning cannot suddenly become a 'math teacher' when lyrics is gone.
When you listen to this very convincing performance you really get that some things matter but only after deep personal musical experience... two violas and cello da spalla bring important colours in this performance with great performers' musicality of course.
Kuijken family is one of my favourite HIPP group. Uncompromized passion intelligence musicality... and as a result... living music.. not reconstructed... but just born and living as it was in great romaromantic ntic performers' era
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I think it is fabulous that that girl stood up and played the Chaconne so well.
I do feel however that a tenuto between beats two and three for no discernible musical reason in SO many non structural bars is at the very least questionable.
But then again, as I said above, I have never heard this piece played well in such a way as I could believe that the player might be entirely satisfied with the results.
I have however heard it played 'badly' and in some cases could easily imagine that the performer might completely at ease with the results.
NOONE finishes this music.
D.
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HUUUUUGE VIOLAS
Bach is kind of.... OK, when I did classical singing. I was a Baritone.
Bach gives you just enough rope to hang yourself. It's brutal. It's not Handel. But you can't say it's un-vocal, because if you were good you could sing it.
That's how it is. I bet it's the same on strings.
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I found Chris Thile's opinion on bowing vs plectrum interesting, from this interview:
Bradley Klein: I've seen you using Blue Chip picks in recent years, and you endorse a triangle that they make.
Chris Thile: I love my Blue Chip picks, but sometimes I envy violinists. Hell, I envy violinists all the time — what with the amount of sound they can produce — but those bows... the amount of work that has gone into bow manufacturing. Sartory and Tourte, and Peccatte... those are bows that perform their function as well as anything made by humans can. I love how Michel at Wegen, and Matthew (Goins) at Blue Chip care so much about pick design. They're doing a killer job. But I hope they keep pushing, because I think there's another level. I don't know if it's a materials thing or shape thing, but it hasn't hit the level of sophistication that bows have by a long shot.
Bradley Klein: I blame you for pointing out that mandolin and guitar players are smacking a piece of plastic against a metal wire with every note. Now I can't get that out of my head.
Chris Thile: (laughs ruefully) I spend a significant amount of every day trying to disguise that fact.
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I remember when Hale Gabri Selasi nearly missed the olympics because of terrible blisters in his feet.
He had to keep wearing them trainers for the sponsorship money, in reality he preferred to run in barefoot which is the condition that evolution solved and the further from which we get the more problems we have.
Cutting Edge Plectrum Technology(TM) like sports shoe, soap, bleach, detergent, oil, toothpaste and toothbrush technology, is absolute bollocks in my opinion. But there are adverts all over with 'science' explaining why you should spend a fortune on the latest thing even though the old thing was perfect....
I dislike strongly advertising blurb masquerading as enthusiasm. Noone who knows how to use one blames the pick for their sound. Purple Dunlops are as good now as they ever were . At around two for a dollar however there isn't spare money to bribe artists with which is good because amateurs don't get fleeced.
I don't begrudge Chris his free boxes of plectrums and whatever kickbacks he gets, but I do dislike having my intelligence insulted and advertising copy pretending to be interviews.
He's spot on about one thing though, avoiding an inflexible and unvarying attack is a lot of what practice is about. That is what technique is for, technology and bogus 'breakthrough' really can't help you pay attention properly which is the real issue.
Actually maybe it can, in the case of hearing aids.
The saddest thing of all is that once someone has been tricked into wasting money they aim their outrage not at the company who fooled them, instead they become become staunch and vocal advocates for the product and enraged when their pet folly is questioned. Usually be some fool like me who should have the sense to merely laugh up his sleeve and keep his mouth shut.
D.Last edited by Freel; 08-03-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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Blue Chips are nice. Originally Posted by Freel
A lot of jazz guitarists seem to actively work towards an unvarying pick attack.
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Getting back to Bach. Many scholars believe Bach studied the solo violin music of Biber to prepare for his solo violin compositions,in particular they draw a parallel between the Chaconne and Biber's Passacaglia in the same key.
Here is a Passacaglia I improvised freely a few months ago which I don't think I shared here before....I may have been in a huff.
For some reason it's in gm , it is also a Solea in d phrygian,my apologies for the cadenza but the ear wants what the ear wants, and I need to accept whatever comes along or I flounder.
Last edited by Freel; 08-04-2018 at 07:32 AM.
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I think she plays way better that pathetic Vengerov's record quoted in this thread. Originally Posted by Freel
I do not understand critical comments like yours about tenuto... you cannot criticize such a complex piece of music in such a way.
It's like idiontic commenct on youtube: the tempo is too fast (too slow).
Music (and especially music of such level) is complex piece of art thata contains many different semantic levels which work all together in good performance in a way that it is impossible just to say: well that's fine - only tenuto is the problem...
It is all interconnected.. if you know and understand this music, if you hear how it works, and hear what it tells about... how deep it goes.
i am sure that Chaconne is one of the most fundamental Christian music... it surprisingly comprises what Bach has expressed in his vocal works, and in 2 volumes of instrumental New Testament.. WTK.
But the Chaconne is mostly connected with the period after Christ's death, his descension into the Hell, and Resurrection.
Very untyipical for Bach variation form is developed to the utmost degree... and overcomes itself actually - as a result variations are only simple structural elements of more complex meaningful episodes and parts of form.
One of the most signififcan feature of Bach's music (of any music but bach espeially) is working with time. He is able to express both linear time movement - historical time - the time of hebrew and christian (Old and New testament) - the time that goes form the beginning of time till the of it.. step by step in the present - leaving past behind and looking into future (this is the time that bacame the only tme model in later Betthoven style music)... and another time - time Holy Judgement, Ressurection - when time holds, when it does not move though you still can feel it.
Variation give more possibilities to work with cyclic time feel (as it happens in renaissance music whne often you lose the beginning variations already in teh middle of the piece) - and huge vast linear development of the form.
It all coincides in the end of the last D minor episodes - which in my opinion shows at the same time the descending of the soul to Hell and then ascension up and purification of it... in this episodes time colapses, it is no more. And final chords of the theme are not the return of time but it is recreation.
it all began like a small man withing a time flow and that flow throws and tosses, and ended like a humanthat withholds all the time in him, that forms and molds time, makes it move and breathe.
Maya's performance is full of integrity and astonishing maturity - whic can be only gift as it is just impossible to conciously comprehend such things. She just has some connection to this breath, meanings... she will only develope it in the future I know.
And what I also appreciate in her performance that it is absolutely unconventional in the way young modern violinist should play it
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i think every pluck instrument player should develope the touch thinking of it as of bow... think that you can play all the spectrum of the attacks and controls that bow players have, control the end of the note (which is often mistake even of top players - and pianists too by the way). Originally Posted by pcsanwald
i am big fan of baroque traverso and do play some... when I first occasionally picked i was astonished how much more expressive it is than any plucked instrument...
It teaches you fantastic harmonic and melodic articulation, clearance and coherence.
I hate plucked instruments actually... lots of meaningless resonance and thoughless sonoric beautic, and crazy players' communities.
Only lute and jazz guitar are two worlds that seem convincing enough for me to pick these instruments.
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She drags on beat two, often but not consistently. I think she is trying do something with rubato which would should be achieved with articulation tone and dynamics, I know why and it is something that I have worked hard to excise from my playing.
It is common fault amongst classical guitarists, so common in fact that many cannot hear it. It is the central trouble that they have playing with others and in particular playing rhythmic styles like flamenco and swing.
I used the word tenuto in an attempt to be gentle, I dislike words like 'pathetic' to criticise another persons efforts, especially when someone in the discussion has expressed admiration. I expressed admiration for the girl, the word used was fabulous.
There I have removed the speck from my eye.
I thought we would have a whale of a time, I am surprised you feel I should repent my wickedness.
No, let me be honest, I am seldom surprised.
D.Last edited by Freel; 08-06-2018 at 04:28 AM.
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Interesting quote about the Chaconne from a violinist:
Marc Pincherle, Secretary of the French Society of Musicology in Paris, wrote in 1930: "If, insofar as certain rapid monodic passages are concerned, opinion is divided between the violin and the guitar as the better medium, the guitar always triumphs in polyphonic passages; that is to say almost throughout the entire work. The timbre of the guitar creates new and emotional resonance and unsuspected dynamic gradations in those passages which might have been created purely for the violin; as for instance the variations in arpeggi."
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It is astonishing how guitaristic some things become when read straight off the urtext. The C major Allegro looks, texturally and by no means in terms of quality, a lot like a study by Carcassi or Molina. Originally Posted by grahambop
That quote pretty much sums up the consensus amongst the violinists over thirty that I have met, under thirty is a lottery.
I will always remember long ago when my Ibanez destroyer was my most prized possession hearing the prelude from the Cello sonatas, you know ....the one everyone plays, on the then new Radio Station Classic FM and finding that to my ears it sounded fresh and lyrical and like the work of a living guitarist.
The guitar breathes life into Bach's lateral harmony in a way that only the most superb acoustic and sensitive performance responding to that acoustic can on violin.
I would imagine though that there is not a single violinist in the world who would give up his bow or swap it for a plectrum.
D.
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I tried to move you to understanding that she actually DOES NOT make any tenuto or drag on beat 2. Alas.. Originally Posted by Freel
This is just irrespective to form and contents of this music.
It is so difficult to explain to musicians that there is no technique and no articulation at all without contents.
You cannot say to an actor: this vowel is too long or this syllable is stressed too much if you do not understand the text he says and its meaning.
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Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation