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Originally Posted by Dean7887
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04-29-2021 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by StringNavigator
They start getting omitted in the 20's, and are mostly gone by the 50's, but don't mistake a composers Verse for some kind of arranged introduction.
Here's Fats Waller's tune "A Porter's Love Song to a Chambermaid" - verse provides a narrative introduction... "Though my position is of low degree...", etc.
And then the "chorus" starts on "I would be your...."
Another example is "St. Louis Blues"... where there's a 12 bar blues chorus (the first one starts "I Hate to see, that evening sun go down..."), plus a 16 bar minor key verse (starts with the lyric "St. Louie woman with your store bought hair...". It's one of the rare verses people might play at the top, and perhaps come back to later.
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And while I'm being an annoying pedant...
As the Original Poster... can we keep this thread focused on chord-melody intros/interludes and (ostensibly) ad libbed solos with in a band context?
While there is some overlap, I think there's something very distinctive and different about those swing-era intros/interludes and the (ostensibly*) ad-libbed chord solos, as compared to the composed/published solo guitar and duet pieces (say Kress/McDonough or something like George M. Smith's "Test Pilot"), or the kind of Eddie Lang-style... um... "Busy rhythm guitar".
I think the composition and structure of pieces like Kress/McDonough or say George Van Eps's "Dick Bernstein Ramble"** can provide insightful things for doing chord-melody solos or composing intros and interludes, but they're kind of their own thing, and if somebody wants to start a separate thread, I'll be happy to read and post in it.
Ditto, what I call "busy rhythm guitar" - the kind of mixed chord/chord-solo/fills rhythm guitar styles you see before four-to-the-bar rhythm fully evolved and took over - something worthy of it's own thread for sure....
But some stuff we ought to talk about:
- the extent to which triad shapes are superimposed over chords in different ways, providing different sets of chord tones/extensions. I notice that really overtly with Reuss... that his solos can almost entirely be a series of these triad-based moves, and so he's literally got like 4-5 chord forms he's using for everything.
- how to set up key changes in this pre-bop harmony during an interlude.
- the way there are sometimes some single notes mixed in
- the kind of chromatic alterations/substitutions that seem to be stylistic hallmarks.
*I say "ostensibly" because sometimes I just can't imagine how some of these players didn't have these solos a bit mapped out, because they're almost "too good". But other solos, it's clear they're fully improvising.
**"Dick Bernstein Ramble" was mistakenly credited to Dick McDonough and bassist Artie Bernstein when it was first issued on LP in the 70's, but Howard Alden later learned it and happened to play it in front of George Van Eps, who was shocked at how Howard could've learned a thing he'd written but had never been released. Turns out it was really GVE and Bob Haggart on bass, but I don't know that we ever learned it's original title.
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Jonathan, maybe this is too far afield, but I wonder if you could comment on the similarities between the solos and interludes you’ve described and pre-archtop/Eddie Lang banjo practice. It’s always seemed to me that the early jazz guitar masters brought their banjo techniques with them.
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Originally Posted by L50EF15
But I will recount something Howard Alden said to me recently.... I'd just transcribed GVE's solo "Cherry" with Jess Stacy from 1950.
This was the first transcription I'd ever done of this style myself (THANK YOU, SOUNDSLICE!), and while I felt good about most of the voicings, there were a couple bits where they could be conceivably played in two different places. I asked Howard if he'd take a look. He was kind enough to share with me his own transcription, and was quite excited that I'd gotten most of it right, though a couple things were in that alternative position.
Howard explained that, coming from the banjo, that all things being equal... GVE would be more likely to stay on a given string set, and walk voicings up and down the neck, rather than to jump to another string set. So that piece of advice is all I've got in that regard...
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Originally Posted by campusfive
In any event, something like Picking For Patsy sounds like it would translate well from guitar to tenor or plectrum banjo. I started a thread over in Other Instruments to address the similarities without taking this one off the rails.
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Maybe not exactly what you’re looking for but Bob Wills’ Maiden’s Prayer is another example. Eldon Shamblin has a few bars to set up the key change from the instrumental chorus to the new key for the vocal chorus.
The Harry Volpe and Frank Victor book’s section on modulations is really interesting. Mostly I’ve found this book to be pretty unhelpful but the section on modulations is pretty cool. Like the rest of the book I wish they had more examples.
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Originally Posted by jasonc
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I think he means this one:
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Hey I just worked on some of George Van Eps's intro and solo on "Sugar" from 1934 with Adrian Rollini:
https://www.facebook.com/10807806/vi...02279228589539
https://www.facebook.com/10807806/vi...02279228584549
Soundslice has been making getting these down so much easier than I'd ever imagined, but there's definitely so challenge when the source audio isn't super clear, or there are other instruments making it hard to hear the guitar voicings.
Also, Dean7887 has been on fire on their Soundslice if you haven't checked it out anything beyond what they posted here.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
WHAT A GUY!
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[QUOTE=campusfive;1119945]... George Van Eps's intro and solo on "Sugar" from 1934 with Adrian Rollini:
https://www.facebook.com/10807806/vi...02279228589539
https://www.facebook.com/10807806/vi...02279228584549
Here's the source without me playing over top:
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Time to study.
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This is the kind of precursor I was referring to, with Mike Pingatore on tenor banjo:
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Originally Posted by L50EF15
I wish I properly understood what they're doing.
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Thanks Jonathan. Great work on Sugar! I recently finished transcribing this one too actually, as it's one of my favourite Van Eps solos. I also transcribed a solo version of Sugar by a great young guitarist called Erik McIntyre that I'm hoping to post soon...
Here's another wonderful solo by George Van Eps on Piano Roll Blues. I think this solo has so many great ideas that it's definitely worth studying, and since it's one of his more 'modern' plectrum recordings it's much easier to hear what he is doing. Here's a link to the transcription on Soundslice:
George Van Eps - Old Piano Roll Blues - Russ Morgan and His Wolverine Band | Soundslice
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Originally Posted by Dean7887
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Hey all!
This is the time in my life when, after focusing on straightening my rhythm and getting better at tremolo, I am determined to put in the time and dedication to get some real acoustic swing chord melody chops (and then try to sell them to my bandleader as a "sound" he may want to use…).
Allow me to resurrect this fantastic thread for a (big) question to the greatest living practitioners of this lost art: if you were to try to learn it from scratch again, how would you go about it? What skills are involved here?
I have my thoughts after perusing what you already generously put out there:
- Fretboard mastery: triad (including dim and aug) + dominant 7 (3 and 4 note shapes) in all inversions and their little melody notes (emphasis on 6th and 9th)
- Right hand: strumming (1/4s, 1/8s shuffle, tremolo), broken chord arpeggios, tremolo
- Harmony: typical devices of the era involving passing chords + use of superimposed triads
- Transcribing/studying solos for vocabulary.
I'm sure I'm missing much! Are there any other foundational skills you'd try to hone in order to be able to improvise in this style?
Thanks a lot and bless you for your generous sharing of ideas and materials!Last edited by radiofm74; 09-11-2022 at 08:39 AM.
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