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Originally Posted by blackcat
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09-10-2020 08:10 AM
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I play mostly chord melody, for both musical and practical reasons. A long time ago I mostly played bebop, so playing was mostly just lines or banging out changes.
Not so different from playing rock, unless you're with a band, when Joe Citizen says, "hey, you play guitar, play a song"...if you don't have chord melody skills, you're limited. I realized I should learn to play not only chord melody, but also fingerpicking styles. There's a lot of music you can make solo on a guitar.
Yes, jazz is generally a group endeavor, and is marked by improvising- but the formula of head/solos/head goes away when you play chord melody. Even great players like Martin Taylor, Bucky Pizzarelli- they have arrangements they use as a basis, and often they don't get too far from the melody.
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Originally Posted by Dana
Hi, D,
I once knew a guy in the 80's who had lost his lower leg in Vietnam. He was, formerly, a member of an elite US Force called the "Recondos" whose job was to engage the Viet Cong in the jungle on search and destroy missions and provide advance intelligence to US troops behind the lines. One afternoon, we were drinking in a lounge and a guy came in and sat across the bar from us. He noticed a tattoo on my friend's forearm and asked him if he was in Vietnam. And, after about 15 minutes of non-stop talking by the stranger about his experiences in Vietnam , my friend turned to me and said "Let's go!" I was surprised since I thought he was interested in the conversation and when we walked outside I said to him "Why did you want to leave?" He looked at me with a wry smile and said calmly,"That guy never spent a day in Vietnam." I guess some things are just that way in life. Play live . . . Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Originally Posted by Dana
I was a "professional" musician in WNY from ages 20 to 30, playing double bass and sax/flute, depending on what band I could book. I ended up playing a lot more bass than horn. By professional, I mean that some months I could actually pay my meager bills with what I made gigging, and other months I had to supplement my income by unloading trailers for ManPower (shout-out to Stevebol!). I guess in your opinion I wasn't a pro; no matter. At 30, I went back to uni and ended up with a pretty good, non-musical career. I didn't play much until retirement because I never wanted to be one of those "Sunday Players" that showed up at the jam sessions I ran.
Oh, how time changes a perspective!
After retirement and pre-covid, I played double bass with a bunch of retired professional guys in a quartet (engineer, bizzo, music educator), not album worthy, but a lot of fun.
All of this is to make the following point; it turns out that I know many excellent musicians, some always gigging, some touring, some gigging and teaching, some just for their own amusement. 3 that I know of (and I suspect a few more) are graduates of a fancy music school in Boston. Another is from the old GIT, but I realize that doesn't have the same gravitas as that other place for some people.
In any case, the point is, none of them felt the need to tell me about it, I had to ask over beers, and in some cases I knew them for some time before we even talked about it. They were just good players.
When I used to hire sidemen, I never asked where they went to school, I just asked them to sit in on a chart or two. When I auditioned for my bass chair with the quartet, no one asked where I studied, they just put me through a pretty grueling audition and I was good enough to be the guy they wanted (and yes, there was more than one of us at the audition, lol!).
It's not really attractive to get all showy with other musicians; when they hear you play, they'll know if you got the goods or not.
I guess I got 'em on double, not so much on CM/solo guitar, but I'm fine with still learning.
Just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by ah.clem
I only mentioned my background because Marinero put his out there and suggested I had little or no playing experience. And the irony isn't missed that you criticize me for posting my background and experience, and in the same thread you posted yours.
Frankly, I agree with you. There's plenty of hacks that come from music schools. Never have I believed or made the claim that going to a music school automatically makes you a great player or an expert on music. It doesn't, and I'm certainly not. But I'm not going to be ashamed of it, and I'm not, as Marinero suggested, a complete novice. He threw out his experience first, and I responded. No one seems to point that out though. I think it's 'cause I mentioned that evil term 'music school'. People see that and go mental.
The point of my earlier post was:
- Playing only solo guitar is not the epitome of guitar playing.
- People that play lots of solo gigs have a tendency to not listen and empathize with other musicians when the do play in a group setting.
Of course people respond by saying I'm wrong and that Joe Pass or Martin Taylor isn't like that, and I agree. But I'm not talking about those guys. I'm not talking about the pros at all. They know better than to play selfishly. I'm talking about average players like myself and perhaps some others on this board.
If you don't like my opinion, fine. Have a contrary opinion? Go ahead and make it. I'm always open to hearing another person's perspective, and happy to correct any mistakes I've made. But if you need to use insults to make your point, I'm going to call it out. Hence my response to Marinero that you quoted. My own personal experience is not a fantasy, as he suggested initially. It is what it is, my own personal experience.Last edited by Dana; 09-11-2020 at 08:01 AM.
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Hey, blackcat. Whereabouts in SW France are you? I spend a lot of time in the Dordogne and have a little jazz trio there. There are two jazz summer camps in the Dordogne and a jam session in Perigueux. Check out your local town for jam sessions, also check AngloInfo, Leboncoin, etc.
To get back to your question, I have had to resort to playing solo for the very reasons you state. I live in Hawaii, which isn't exactly a bastion of jazz. So, I have turned increasingly to solo playing. I see there are some Joe Pass references above, but actually he said it was the best way to play jazz on the guitar. I agree with that to an extent. It can be very rewarding, if a little challenging. And I disagree with the comment above that solo players aren't suited to playing in a band setting. The reverse is true. It will equip you with a deeper understanding of harmony, strengthen timing and feel, and give you a greater spatial awareness. All of this comes with a caveat of course; it takes time to develop the skills and there are few comprehensive aids, courses, and books to get you there.
So, it is well worth pursuing but not to the exclusion of seeking opportunities to play with others. They complement each other.
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It seems to me that:
Observations:
1. Improvising solo jazz guitar is very challenging, and the more that one does that with chords as opposed to melodies, is even more so.
2. There are/were a very few who could do it masterfully. And when I say "masterfully" I mean (1) with ease, and (2) in a manner that listeners have repetitive interest in.
Conclusions:
1. Joe Pass was one very special and rare player.
2. I'll take Wes' While We're Young, and I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face as "Jazz", because I don't hear guitarists from other genres arrange or play like that. Not anything like that.
Just my two cents.
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I’ve been going through a solo guitar kick for the same reason as the OP. I hate backing tracks and this seems more of a honest thing to me. I think chord melody is a good thing for general playing. It’s good for understanding harmony and deeply learning songs. Not so great for cultivating your time feel haha (practice with a metronome once you have your fingers around an arrangement.)
On doing it: Quiet as it’s kept, one of the best ways to learn to improvise is to compose.
So if you try and compose/arrange lots of chord melody things, you will eventually get better at doing it on the fly. They don’t have to amazing at first; basic is fine.
Use published and recorded arrangements to give you ideas, rather than just learning the arrangement (though feel free to do that as well.)
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That is most helpful. Will check out your references tho' obviously Covid will have put the brakes on things. I live close to Cahors in fact. Can you send any specific references?
Thanks,
David
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Originally Posted by vsaumarez
Thanks,
David
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Cahors? Nice! David, here are the workshops:
Dordogne International Jazz Summer School This is run by Brits in the summer. Andrea Vicari has been running workshops for years. The other is run by French in Monpazier. I can't find any links, so may be it's stopped. Here is the jam session link in Perigueux Jazz Session | Entertainment Events | Dordogne Then there's the Marciac festival, which I'm sure you know about. I expect they have courses. Martin Taylor runs workshops all over. I have also published on the subject.
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Hi Dana !
I totally agree with you.
But after the departure of my last trio( drummer dead) and bassist gone elsewhere ,I decided to play only jazz guitar solo.I am in my 70´s now and after all that interesting social musical contacts,I judged I could play alone now
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Originally Posted by vsaumarez
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On the subject of "chord melody" on guitar, someone on this forum once said something that I found impressive. Pianists don't say "Hey I'm doing a chord-melody arrangement of that tune." They just say "I'm playing that tune." Playing a melody, supported by harmony, is not "chord melody piano" it's just "playing the piano." And of course, pianists can play "single note" lines as well.
If one is going to play solo guitar, it seems to me one is obliged to play the melody, under-gird it with interesting harmonic support, and put it forward in a rythmically interesting and musically appealing form. That's not "chord melody" it's just "playing a song on the guitar."
I think our tendency to treat chordal and/vs line playing is a hold-over from our transition out of merely being a better banjo in big bands to being a melodic voice. Maybe we'd do better to drop the dichotomy?
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Like others here I don't have the luxury of playing jazz in a group. There simply are no jazz musicians where I live. So I either play jazz solo or not play live at all. So, I have to rely on solo, chord melody jazz. I do practice playing with CDs and ripped CDs. That at least gives me some experience playing within a band context. Certainly not ideal, but better than nothing.
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I think my reason for being interested in chord melody is probably a bit simpler than most here. Firstly I want to spend the most time working on what I'm going to be playing 99% of the time as I rarely play in bands so solo guitar fits my needs that way.
Secondly the times I do play in bands, they aren't "exclusive" jazz bands as most would imagine them. It's a mish mash of musicians with varying degrees of skill and differing interests in musical styles and therefore none of them really care if I can improvise over a tune as opposed to can I tastefully comp along to actually finish the song and in that respect I can already see the benefits of increased chord vocab helping with that.
I suppose my ignorance and being the bobbins musician in the group has some blissful benefits. :-)
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I’ve been reading this thread so I decided to join the forum and ask some questions. In regards to chord melody, does anyone have any advice in regards to variations within a jazz standard? I’ve started creating my own arrangements from lead sheets and so far the only things that I’ve come up with are: (1) the straight up chords/melody from the lead sheet, (2) walking bass line with chords only, and (3) improvised melody with underlying chords. Is there a good resource for preludes/introductions as well as song endings?
My goal is to have a minimum of a 2 hour set list by the summer so I can start playing coffee houses and restaurants whenever things get back to normal. So any advice will be appreciated. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Papa Razz
This is something that interests me as well. There was a post on this forum where someone posted a list of ideas for a solo jazz guitar song. I've tried in the past but can't locate it. Tin Lerch's TrueFire course Solo Jazz Guitar Pathways is geared toward this very subject.
Ron Eschete has at least two books on this subject Chord Melody Phrases for Guitar (I just ordered) and Jazz Intros and Endings. Someone on this forum just posted a great PDF with two pages of ideas for intros and endings.
At the end of the Joe Pass famous chord book there are some chord passages.
Another idea you can explore modulation...play the B section up a third for example...also play with the temp and feel....play a verse swing style...
I wish I could locate that thread....
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Some stuff here.
How to extend duration of chord melody arrangements?
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Piano arrangements, from songbooks, can be good sources. They frequently have intros, and for old standards, may include the verse, not just the chorus that shows up in Real books.
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I used to play classical so I (was) very used to solo playing. But the thought of learning set arrangements for jazz tunes + improv makes me feel like a performing monkey. I found it completely denies the sense of creative freedom that single-note soloing offers. Mind you, I know I should embellish my solos with more chords but that's just laziness.
I can easily work out a chord melody on a tune but the trouble is, and I've said this often, is that I no sooner find one way to do it than another idea pops up and the fingers get confused and stall. For some reason soloing notes doesn't do that because I just do something else next time round.
There's also another reason which I should probably keep quiet. It bores me. I may not have listened to a complete solo rendition by anybody of note, including Joe or Wes. Players here, yes, because they want feedback and attention, but generally no. Modern players like Kreisberg and Lage hold me longer because of the surprise notes but I can still drift off.
So the upshot is I just stick to single note stuff. Limited but there we are. At least I make all my own backing tracks :-)
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
To me this is the epitome of solo playing - spontaneous, fluid (not placing a drop 2 or 3 voicing under every single note), musical, and actually interesting to listen to.
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Originally Posted by Dana
These guys can play some songs very nicely. Even just using open-string chords and fingerpicking (the most common technique). Again, they sound nice. So typically they will start out with something they have worked on by-themselves. I listen say 'that was cool" then ask: "Ok, what should we play?". They will say "you play something". I'll ask "you know I\IV\V blues?". Often they don't and even if they do they don't know how to solo over it. That just isn't their thing. Or I'll play the chords to Fly Me To The Moon. They will say that is nice but they can't play along with that.
AGAIN folks: these are not pro players but just people like myself that really love playing the guitar. But since they have played mostly solo they don't know how to play music with others.
PS: If it is a small dinner party and I the only musician I'll bring out the amp with a looper and play well known songs having the looper play the chords and I play the melody \ solo over that. I can play a few songs chord-melody style (thanks to help from this forum!), but I'm limited.
KA PAF info please
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