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About Joe’s solo stuff I would say that I always enjoyed it more live than on the records. I saw him several times at Ronnie Scott’s and seeing him play it live was completely different. There was a real sense of him ‘walking on a tightrope’, he even took a wrong turn sometimes but he skilfully recovered it every time. Which really made it seem that he had no pre-conceived idea of what he was going to play next. Also he hardly ever played the same tune more than once over the years as I recall.
By comparison Martin Taylor (who I also saw there several times) was flawless and more polished, but always played the same core set of tunes. It didn’t seem as ‘off the cuff’ as Joe.
The club was always full when Joe played, he certainly seemed to be a big draw.
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05-13-2019 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
So if you're looking for chord-melody in the Ted Greene/George Van Epps mode, Joe Pass is not your man. Chord melody is just one tool in his solo-guitar toolbox. I think that's the thing people forget. He didn't "do great chord-melody." He actually relegated it to a subordinate role in the larger picture of improvising on the solo guitar.
Joe transformed and redefined solo guitar so that "mere" chord-melody no matter how clever the voicings and how stretchy the chords, just isn't enough any more.
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Originally Posted by padraig
Whilst I appreciate and enjoy the guitarists, I have probably listened more to the horns and piano in terms of really understanding and learning what the essence of jazz is about, they are as big an influence on me. I don’t understand guitarists who only listen to guitarists, I think we should listen to and learn from all the great jazz players, on all instruments.
Actually Wes Montgomery was probably one of the few guitarists that really did get wider jazz respect back in the day, he played a gig with Coltrane and was allegedly asked to join the band permanently, a truly unique honour for a guitarist. (He turned it down though!). He also became very popular with the wider public for his last few years with his ‘pop’ based records (which often contain great examples of how to play short melodic solos by the way).
Nowadays I think the guitar is on more of an equal footing, looking at the current scene it seems that the newer generation of guitarists e.g. Julian Lage, Gilad Hekselman, etc. get to play with everybody and are considered equally as important.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Just to make clear where I'm coming from in terms of solo guitar... There is this guy here, Jonathan Stout, we all know him, who's carrying on a tradition of pre bebop styles of jazz. His concept of solo guitar is what I think the most entertaining for me. More chords than single lines, always strummed rather than plucked classical style, it flows better that way! So this, or on the other, modern end of the spectrum, the minimalist approach of John Scofield, where again, the groove and flow is always incredible.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
But if that's what you think of as the baseline for solo guitar, then sure, you are not going to go for Joe Pass's solo guitar style. But that's credible entirely because you have articulated specifically what you like.
I disagree about JP sacrificing the groove. I think he maintains an amazing time and swing through what he does, given what he is reaching for. I don't think he's trying to prove anything. I think he's trying to find something. He reaches. He stretches. He takes risks, gets stuck, has to play himself out of a corner.
That's improvisation, and that's what I love about his playing!
But I get your perspective and see why you like what you do. All's good.
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05-13-2019, 03:21 PM #56Jkniff26 Guest
It’s the whole idea of let me say something confrontational and see how much response I get. I mean even if if you are a great jazz guitarist and this guy is not, but even if you are who cares if you don’t like Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery? What good does that debate really do anyone? It’s just worthless dribble. Joe was loved worldwide by real audiences. He was loved by Ray Brown , Oscar Peterson , Ella Fitzgerald , and man that’s some company. He is a titan. Why does it matter what some guy that may or may not be a real person thinks?
Sorry, I should not have engaged. It’s a waste of time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I don't agree with the OP as I'm a JP fan and have been for years. Yes, I like his stuff with groups and Ella better than the later solo improvisational stuff because I just don't appreciate improvisation as much as a lot of the folks on here do - it bores me to tears. But I also got many of the same comments when I made a disparaging remark about Jimi Hendrix and on the acoustic forum when I said that I didn't care for Tommy Emmanuel's playing. It's seems that we can't express an opinion any more without being called names. Loved Johnny Smith, Wes, Herb, Charlie Byrd, and JP - don't enjoy Jim Hall that much or Pat Martino or Pat Metheny for that matter. It takes all kinds, though.
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I have listened to "sports" fans go into the "who was the best" thing and there was always someone who would say.."I dont think this player is/was that good" and all that..now we have to realize these opinions are just that..
when I studied with Ted Greene I saw him make "mistakes" and he would just acknowledge them and move on..which only made him more just a guy who plays guitar and I could relax more with him..
in one lesson I brought him the sheet music for a song that was in a movie so it was not a popular tune..Ted read it through then played it...in a chord melody style..after that ..if any one had something to say about his playing I just would let it slide..
how bout them Dodgers..
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I was listening to "Midnight Blue" today and marveling at Kenny's unerring swing and groove. He couldn't put a note in the wrong place if he tried. Ditto Wes. Joe Pass knew where the groove was although he was sometimes a bit looser with it.
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Originally Posted by padraig
The criticisms by your colleagues as far as guitarists go are in some cases spot on and in some cases not; it depends on the individual. And yet for all that, guitar has had a role in jazz music for as long as it has been recorded.
To my ears some of the worst offenders along those lines are pianists. They can't stop playing the bass line, the chords and the melody all together- leaving no room for anybody else to play any music with them. When they solo, they're too often only listening to their own comping and not anybody else.
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I question the whole notion of rating musicians, at least after a certain level of skill.
I love some music and I don't care for other music. Plenty of people I respect love music that I don't care for much.
How can I sensibly rate something that doesn't appeal to me?
I prefer Joe Pass' work with bands to his solo material. Is the material that I don't care as much for proof that Joe "wasn't all that"?
I do feel competent to state that he had great time, great chops, great improvised melody and great harmony. Sometimes he had what I think of as great tone, sometimes not. Was it bad tone? How could I know? All I know is that I preferred other tones. (specifically, my favorite of his albums is Tudo Bem, which I love despite the dry tone).
I'm certainly aware when a player lacks the skill for what he's trying to do. Heaven knows I've been there enough with my own playing. But, Joe Pass? One of the all-time greats.
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This reminds me of how I used to feel about Pat Metheny. I listened to a lot of Pat Metheny and decided that I just flat didn't like it. None of it. Didn't seem to swing, didn't seem to be "musical" in the way I thought was musical in those days, too many chops and technique, to many layers of effects...
Then one day, after I'd been banging my head against the wall trying to make a very elementary breakthrough in the business of swinging, a Pat Metheny tune came on the radio and I almost had a wreck. It grabbed me so hard I couldn't stand it. Suddenly it was like my ears "popped" like when you are going up a mountain and I really heard. I didn't know it was PM until after the track finished, and I realized I had that CD and somehow, when playing it before, I just didn't get it.
I don't know what it is that we can not find a player appealing, and then, one day, it's all we want to hear. To this day, I really enjoy Pat Metheny. Not my cup of tea as a player, but I still love his skill, his fluency, his musical creativity, his boldness, and his constantly pushing me to listen for more. I'm a Pat Metheny fan now, and it was more of an epiphany than anything else.
Since that time, I've been very, very cautious about making statements about players who have an established reputation for excellence. More often than not, if I don't think much of their playing, it's more a statement about me than about them.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
I happen to think that being able to properly assess someone's playing, you have to have a developed ear and the best way to have that ear is by being able to play yourself to a certain degree.
As a lecturer, I have been assessing BA students all my professional life and I was only able to do that because I studied the subject myself to a higher degree than my students. That's the way in our educational system. You teach and assess BA students, you have to have an MA degree. To teach and assess MA students you have to have a Phd etc.
Though in conservatories it still works this way, this is not entirely the same for assessing someone's playing - I admit that so don't start arguing this with me on this one- but still, a beginner cannot possibly give a good assessment of a guy like Wes or Joe on a technical level. He lacks the harmonic and melodic insights to be able to do that. He can only state what he likes or not and have an opinion but NOT give a REALLY meaningful assessment of the quality of the playing.
Of course this is not how the internet works at all, where everybody is equal and is supposed to be an expert, regardless of skill and knowledge. And that's why posts like "most bedroom players are better than Wes - will always be part of forum life. People just post an uninformed opinion, turn this into a fact and than claim they every right to do so because everybody is entitled to ... blah blah.
I have seen it all over the years. Pat Martino is boring and repetitive, Barney Kessel did not swing, Bireli only plays scales fast etc. etc. Go to Youtube and you will find all the "expert" remarks underneath the vids.
It's the way of the internet and it will never go away. But this is not how it goes in real life fortunately - especially in personal communication - where we still tend to evaluate the message by looking at the quality of the sender or simply by at least knowing who he is saying what.
DB
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Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
Yet I wonder at something. All of us were beginners at some point. Indeed, there was a point when we had not yet begun. And most of us were not born with perfect pitch. Yet many of us heard someone----Wes, Charlie Christian, Django---and we were wowed. We didn't know what the hell they were doing. How could we? But we were drawn to it. And it just so happens that a lot of the guitarists that inspire many people to take up an instrument (or pursue it more seriously if we'd just been half-assing it until that moment) are very good.
So even though I could in no way properly assess what Wes was doing the first time I heard "No Blues" from "Smokin' At The Half Note", I knew it was extraordinary. Same thing with my first exposure to Django and Charlie Christian.
Again, I am not disagreeing with you. I think what you've said is in the right. And yet I would reserve a space for those who are not yet competent but still recognize exceptional quality. (Maybe this is what we mean by 'having an ear for music' but not yet a well-developed one.)
Perhaps another way to see this is through singing. I am a crap singer but I can hear that Ella Fitzgerald was a great singer.
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Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
There are reasons beyond 'technicality' and 'proper' use of harmony, etc., etc., to like or dislike someone's playing - could it be that you just don't like it, without getting all anal about 'why'. Every person has his/her own ideas about what is good in a piece of music and why they like something and it's not fair to denigrate them because of lack of education or not being one of the 'kool kids'. Jazz and classical enthusiasts, by elevating their genres to cerebral heights, have pretty much 'shot themselves in the foot' in trying to gain more widespread popularity.....or maybe that's what they want. I've always said that about the worst thing that ever happened to jazz was letting the educators get a hold on it. I don't remember hearing of any colleges turning out a bunch of Wes Montgomerys, Ben Websters, Herb Ellis', Tony Rices, Doc Watsons, or Merle Travis' lately. Sorry for adding the country guys to the list, but they're more fun to listen to at times. That's what it all boils down - listen to what you like - only you can be the judge and your opinion on what you like is just as valid as anybody's, PhD or not.
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Most opinions that go contrary to conventional wisdom are posted by someone who has never posted their own playing on the forum. I can't remember any of the good players ever having these out in left field type of opinions.
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Originally Posted by fep
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Skip wrote:
So, what you're saying is: one is not qualified to express an opinion on his/hers dislikes in music without being a better player or more musically educated than the player?
No read my post again. You can like dislike all you want.
A masters degree can only be critiqued by a PhD?
No. You can critique all you want. But when graduating the final vote goes to the professor in the academic world. You'd like a housewife or porter to judge the technical side of dissertations?
A BS can only be judged by a Masters? In 'academia', maybe, but in the real world, that's absolute rubbish. Remember the old saying, " those who can't, teach". That's just pure arrogance IMHO.
Those who can't teach? That's BS and has always been just that. In the music world many great players teach.
There are reasons beyond 'technicality' and 'proper' use of harmony, etc., etc., to like or dislike someone's playing - could it be that you just don't like it, without getting all anal about 'why'.
Agreed. There are yes. Be my guest to dislike all you want. Love what you want. Hate what you want. But there is a technical side to jazz that can only be judged by someone that knows what he is hearing because otherwise you get people telling that Joe Pass sucks.
Every person has his/her own ideas about what is good in a piece of music and why they like something and it's not fair to denigrate them because of lack of education or not being one of the 'kool kids'. Jazz and classical enthusiasts, by elevating their genres to cerebral heights, have pretty much 'shot themselves in the foot' in trying to gain more widespread popularity.....or maybe that's what they want. I've always said that about the worst thing that ever happened to jazz was letting the educators get a hold on it.
I disagree. All the great Dutch players (Jesse van Ruller, Martijn van Iterson) have studied and carry degrees. They are a product of music schools. Education is not necessary (the Rosenbergs) but it helps some. Others not so much. I do think music schools have stimulated jazz a lot over here. It would have been long dead without them.
I don't remember hearing of any colleges turning out a bunch of Wes Montgomerys, Ben Websters, Herb Ellis', Tony Rices, Doc Watsons, or Merle Travis' lately. Sorry for adding the country guys to the list, but they're more fun to listen to at times. That's what it all boils down - listen to what you like - only you can be the judge and your opinion on what you like is just as valid as anybody's, PhD or not.
Try Jesse van Ruller and Martijn van Iterson. Pasquale Grasso too. They went to colleges.The only thing I claim in my post is that if you have no idea of harmonic or melodic concepts you should not be analysing someone's playing. You end up with nonsense in the vein of the OP. For the rest DO dislike Joe Pass or Wes or whomever you wish to.
DB
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Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion , and I don't think anyone really has an issue with that. There's a very delicate art to trolling , and it has a lot to do with making controversial statements which aren't explicitly opinion and then claiming "opinion" when people take issue with it.
If you don't really have a good idea of what an opinion actually is, this argument could be used about anything. I mean, is it fair to just go back and claim that basically everything I say is an opinion after the fact?
"I don't get Wes. His playing leaves me cold. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand why He has the status he has " etc. etc. etc.
This is all 100% opinion. It's all based in what you actually think.
"I don't think Wes is 'all that'. He's overrated. He's always talked about as being this legend, yet there are plenty of amateur players who could do the same thing. ....People claim to really dig Joe's solo playing maybe because they feel like they're supposed to say that".
Not saying that OP actually said all these things. I don't remember, and I don't care. But these are examples of veiled criticisms of OTHER'S thoughts and feelings,... of consensus, ...of a player's status in history etc. etc. ...MORESO than simply the OPINION of the individual who's saying them. Simply inserting profuse amounts of "I think , I believe, I feel , just my opinion " etc. etc. doesn't change this fact.
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I had probably the same feelings about Joe, and still have partly...
But!
Much later I began to appreciate his playing in a diferent way...
I still was not much fascinated with this 'one-man-band' thing but I began to like and appreciate his lines in the impros, his sense o groove... his humour, wisdom and humanity I did not recognize beore
I seem to begin to catch something that had escaped from me before.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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You shouldn't have to though, that's one of my points. Music shouldn't be an auricular exercise, it should be simply enjoyable. If the audience can't tell what you're playing then you're not playing it right.
The respect for the audience (readers, listners, watchers) is shown when the artists consider them to be equal with him, when he honestly speaks to them as he would spoke to themselves.
Trying to meet the expections of the audience and to change oneself going down (or trying to preted higher) on their level will lead to the feeling of false and fake actions.
Being true to yoursel is the real respect for the people you play for.
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Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times. The matter isn't helped when it seems there's so much absolute twoddle written about it. Modes? I've never heard any classically trained musician talk about modes as anything other than an historical footnote. Yet jazz forums like this are full of it. I know a violinist who plays for a very well known symphony orchestra in the UK and I kid you not he says he doesn't even know the key signatures. He says he knew them once when he was a kid and had to pass theory exams but other than that, not a clue. He just plays the notes on the score. And I tell you what, it is astonishing to stand next to him, a foot away from the instrument and hear the quality of tone and the musicality he can get from even the most simple melody. Furthermore, I've never seen a piece of music that he's even had to stop to think about, just reads and plays like we read words on a page. Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use.
I dabble in playing jazz on the guitar and wish I was more competent. Likewise I'd love to be able to play jazz violin but I can do little more than play the heads of tunes and for improvising my approach is to embellish the melody whilst trying to keep it in time and with the right 'feel'.
I know what sounds musical when I hear it though and that's enough to have an opinion in my book. Some of the solo work from Joe Pass does not sound musical to me. It sounds like somebody playing random notes with a very generous sense of rubato. If you like that then great, crack on.
I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to accept my opinion is unpopular here. But I'm not willing to accept I'm a "troll" or that my opinion shouldn't count because I've not got a PhD in music theory.Last edited by padraig; 05-14-2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by guitarbuddy
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Originally Posted by John A.
And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?
Do we rate it highly because as guitarists we know how technically challenging it is? Because we aspire to have that level of facility on our particular instrument? Or do we rate it as a piece of music?
Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.
KA PAF info please
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