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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I guess I was thinking of improvisation in different terms, more of an on the fly single line solo over the basic chords or structure of the song. I know that's where a lot of the interest in jazz guitar playing is centered. It sounds like you (and Grahambop possibly) are talking more about having improvised variations of the song that you've given some thought to beforehand.
It seems that if you're improvising, if you've played the song many times and have it internalized I would think a lot of the same ideas come out every time you play it. So at a certain point it would seem to become at least a quasi-arrangement.
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03-26-2018 04:46 PM
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I hope Chris Whiteman won't mind me linking this here, but I personally really love the "blend" of the original song and improv he does here. Beautiful stuff!! I think this type of improv is of a different variety than say straight single line soloing in that it's his personal variation or interpretation of the tune played in chord melody style. I love this!
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Originally Posted by PaulW10
Another thing that happens is you start realizing that there are about 10-12 of these "blocks" of ideas that show up in most jazz standards. Maybe it's a I-VI-II-V A section, or a bridge in ascending 4ths, or whatever. But you discover the ideas you developed for one standard actually fit others with a little adaptation. A freaky fun thing is when you discover interchangeable sections of whole tunes, and then you can quote a phrase from one tune playing another--still in a solo guitar/chord melody kind of framework.
I remember the first tune I tried this whole thing on was "Amazing Grace." Very basic melody and harmony. It is in 3/4, so I switched it up to 4/4. Tried it as a shuffle time with a blues feel, which everybody does. Then I tried it as a swing, started switching out substitutions, etc. and that tune is still one I have a lot of fun playing. I will confess, I make tons of mistakes, have train wrecks, drop a beat or two or six from the tempo... I'm still not that good... but I find these harmonic ideas fun.
For me, improvising is the meeting between things I've learned and the impulse of the moment.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by joe2758
I'm still learning to crawl with solo playing. Thus far my method has been to come up with a head arrangement that is mainly pretty set, includes some sort of harmonic surprise, and has maybe a couple of bars here and there where I leave gaps to improvise or where I have more than one possibility worked out and pick one in the moment. Then on the "improv" chorus, I tend to an idea for the arc of the solo and a couple of pre-arranged milestones that I bushwhack my way to more or less spontaneously. In my group playing, I mix single lines with harmonized lines and block chords (and practice that along with harmonizing heads to some degree). In my solo stuff, my improv choruses are pretty much what I do in groups, but with few single line 1/8 notes and more long tones and chords. Barney Kessel, I ain't. On Tenderly, I didn't really like how that approach was working, so I just saved the improv for the ending and stuck in a couple of single line runs and fills in the middle of the head.
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
So I get confused by some of the terminology. I believe Grahambop mentioned "improvised chorus" and you mentioned you like more contrast in choruses so you lean more to A than B in the song? So what is the general approach when soloing by yourself? I was assuming the improv solo typically comes over the verse (i.e. A section, right?) rather than the chorus, but I must be wrong about that?
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Originally Posted by PaulW10
When I say ‘chorus’ in this context I mean the whole 32 bar form.
Some ‘show’-type standard tunes have a sort of introductory section, often sung rubato, which is often omitted by instrumentalists, this is what I understand is technically called the ‘verse’. The main part of the tune (such as 32 bars AABA) is the ‘chorus’. I don’t think Tenderly has a verse, or if it does, I’ve never heard it.
It’s very confusing.
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Originally Posted by PaulW10
John
PS: if you take a typical 32 bar AABA ballad, and play it at 80 BPM once through the entire form that's already a little over a minute and a half. Once through the head plus a complete solo chorus, plus a full head plus an ending is getting close to 5 minutes, which I think is a lot of one musician on one song to listen to.
I try to keep my solo stuff under 3 minutes, which usually means twice through the whole form, part of that being improv. I experiment with different proportions and combinations until i get something that feels right. Most of the time, it winds up being a full AABA head, AA improv, than back to BA to finish, but even that can be a lot. I'll also sometimes do just 1 chorus, with AA improv, keeping 'em guessing about what tune it is, then bring the melody in at the B section and end with the last A.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 03-26-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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The idea that it seems a lot of people have trouble grasping is that just as you can "blow" over changes like a horn player, improvising a purely melodic line, you can also take the changes and improvise chordally, like a pianist. The top line melody might not be as complex, but the improvisation is working with chord-melody ideas. Wes Montgomery often did this in the second phase of his solos, after a wicked single-note chorus or two, and before the octave choruses, he'd often do a chorus improvised around block-chord ideas like a pianist would.
Then there is Joe Pass' approach, which interweaves the horn-like solo lines, chord accents, walking bass, but I always believed Joe Pass was possessed by the departed souls of other guitarists or something that gave him that (to me) truly frightening ability to do it all at the same time.
If we're going to play solo, and if we're going to play more than one time through a tune, of necessity, we must have strong variation. The second time through the tune needs to be fresh, spicy, more embellished, improvisational. The "out" chorus will have the original melody present, but will still need to bring the whole performance to a climactic resolution.
Listen to Joe Pass on "Summertime" and you get the big concept all in one performance!
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Tim Lerch has a good video on this subject:
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Thanks Grahambop and John for your explanations on song structures, choruses, etc. Those were very informative to me. I thought I understood the concept and now realize I actually didn't all that well!
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
That is an awesome video. It's very inspirational. Tim makes it look so easy! But just watching it makes it make total sense.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for your kind mentions of this video. I made it in hopes that it would be useful for players like those who populate this thread. I'm happy that some of you have found it helpful or at least encouraging to find your own solutions to the issue.
all the best
Tim
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Originally Posted by TLerch
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Originally Posted by TLerch
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Here’s my pretty ragged take, in the key of C. I need lots of work on fingering mechanics.
Last edited by KirkP; 03-28-2018 at 02:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by KirkP
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I didn't know about the 3 version but when I was doing it (in 4) I kept wanting to miss the last beat... Interesting.
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I felt that pull at times too Rags. But my favorite version is in 3 (Bill Evans). Doing it with a solid 3 feel through whol thing was more of a challenge than I wanted to take on, but the guys on here that did it rocked it.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
John
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Howard Heitmeyer did an arrangement for me of Tenderly up the neck but it was too hard so I transposed part of it down to the first position and added a couple little things from the chart. I havn't added this to one of my 5 sets yet because I still get nervous thinking about those chord changes. I like the song and plan to use it this summer. We'll see if I'm brave enough when the time comes. When I played in the restaurant in Vail for six years I would practice and practice a new tune and once in a while struggle during the performance. I still remember struggling with the Way We Were and the couple sitting right in front of me saying.....he's having trouble with that one
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