Cavatina

[Deigh]

I'm trying to make a chord/melody arrangement for the Tune Cavatina in Eb. It is a beautiful tune to play but my sheet music calls for Bb7sus and also Ebsus. Now I have no time for sus chords, I've never liked the sound or even understood the reason for them and in other arrangements I usually ignore them but in this tune they seem to be inescapable.
Has anyone got a solution for me? Can someone offer alternatives or even a way of justifying them?
Deigh

[Guitarzen]

I think we're all perplexed as to why you would hate one particular chord and refuse to use it? Do you refuse to use any other chords like altered dominants? The solution to your problem is actually quite obvious -- just use them, and learn to appreciate them. It doesn't really help to be an artist with a strong aversion to using one of the important tools of the trade. If the melody note is the actual suspension, then your best option is to use the sus chord. You could try substituting another chord in it's place but are likely to just screw up the harmony if you do that, unless you really know what you're doing. Come to think of it, I think your on to something. F#$#$ it I always did hate I chords, I'm not using anymore I chords in my playing, or V chords for that matter they suck too.

[goatrace]

I'm trying to make a chord/melody arrangement for the Tune Cavatina in Eb. It is a beautiful tune to play but my sheet music calls for Bb7sus and also Ebsus. Now I have no time for sus chords, I've never liked the sound or even understood the reason for them and in other arrangements I usually ignore them but in this tune they seem to be inescapable.
Has anyone got a solution for me? Can someone offer alternatives or even a way of justifying them?
Deigh

I know what you mean, buddy. The sound of the sus chord seems to be "tainted" by its widespread use by John Denver hopefuls banging on a Silvertone cowboy special. (Am I showing my age? Ah, yes. I remember the day in the summer of '64 when I discovered the Cmaj7 in first position Sublime...)

[mr. beaumont]

Here's the OP's personal hell.

[eh6794]

Here's the OP's personal hell.

Hell doesn't seem that bad

[Jonah]

Hell doesn't seem that bad

as it usualle looks like...

[grahambop]

I'm trying to make a chord/melody arrangement for the Tune Cavatina in Eb. It is a beautiful tune to play but my sheet music calls for Bb7sus and also Ebsus. Now I have no time for sus chords, I've never liked the sound or even understood the reason for them and in other arrangements I usually ignore them but in this tune they seem to be inescapable.
Has anyone got a solution for me? Can someone offer alternatives or even a way of justifying them?
Deigh

Just pretend they are F minor 7 with a Bb bass, and Bb minor 7 with an Eb bass. Now they aren't sus chords any more and no-one will get hurt.

[Jonah]

If by Cavatina you mean the tune from The Deer Hunter I would really suggest to use the score instead of lead sheet... the tune was composed in a score and chords signature given represent here rather voice leading in classical sence than a 7sus chord as it is used in jazz and pop


...
and still ... sus 7chord is essential for gospel blues and soul music cadences... to me in this case the idea is mixing subdominant and dominant functions in one chord.

Originally 7sus chord makes simultaneous suspension to dominant chord and to tonic chord.

Brings in a common T-D-T cadence the feel of plagal cadence - so typical for blues...

But more and more it sounds like a single independent chord...

To me the modal breakthrough of this chord (like Maiden Voyage was) only shows the importance of this harmony being completely released from its original functional meaning...

...
The other side of it - being used too often in cadences in American pop music it became really a bit 'vanilla'

[Guitarzen]

Jonah makes a good point, it's really all about the voice leading, as well as tension and release. And if you hate that, then you hate music and might as well just quit playing guitar.

[Deigh]

Just pretend they are F minor 7 with a Bb bass, and Bb minor 7 with an Eb bass. Now they aren't sus chords any more and no-one will get hurt.

Thanks for that, will give it a try!
Deigh

[whiskey02]

I'm trying to make a chord/melody arrangement for the Tune Cavatina in Eb. It is a beautiful tune to play but my sheet music calls for Bb7sus and also Ebsus. Now I have no time for sus chords, I've never liked the sound or even understood the reason for them and in other arrangements I usually ignore them but in this tune they seem to be inescapable.
Has anyone got a solution for me? Can someone offer alternatives or even a way of justifying them?
Deigh

When you're improvising you have freedom to do or not do what you want. When you're playing a piece that a composer has written, you really should respect their intentions. Play the piece as it was written, as the composer intended. Cavatina was written specifically for guitar so there's no excuse for making a transcription to play on guitar. If you stop and think about it, you'll quickly realize that it is terribly disrespectful to do so. If there's something you really don't like in a piece, that's not a piece you should play. If I went to a concert and heard someone add notes or remove them from that piece, no matter how well they played, I would walk away with great disrespect for that performer and would think very poorly of them as a musician. If you're making a transcription of a composition that was written for a different instrument you should do everything possible to maintain the character of that piece. If it was written for keyboard, you may have to remove some notes from big chords that aren't possible to play on guitar while maintaing as much of the character of the original chord. Under no circumstance should you change a minor chord to dominant to alter the voice leading as one might do in jazz. If the piece was written for violin you may possible add or extend bass notes that are impossible to sustain on violin while playing the melody. For a piece written for guitar, just play the piece, you really have no right, and there is no need, to make any alteration.

[ronjazz]

When you're improvising you have freedom to do or not do what you want. When you're playing a piece that a composer has written, you really should respect their intentions. Play the piece as it was written, as the composer intended. Cavatina was written specifically for guitar so there's no excuse for making a transcription to play on guitar. If you stop and think about it, you'll quickly realize that it is terribly disrespectful to do so. If there's something you really don't like in a piece, that's not a piece you should play. If I went to a concert and heard someone add notes or remove them from that piece, no matter how well they played, I would walk away with great disrespect for that performer and would think very poorly of them as a musician. If you're making a transcription of a composition that was written for a different instrument you should do everything possible to maintain the character of that piece. If it was written for keyboard, you may have to remove some notes from big chords that aren't possible to play on guitar while maintaing as much of the character of the original chord. Under no circumstance should you change a minor chord to dominant to alter the voice leading as one might do in jazz. If the piece was written for violin you may possible add or extend bass notes that are impossible to sustain on violin while playing the melody. For a piece written for guitar, just play the piece, you really have no right, and there is no need, to make any alteration.

Cavatina is a song, not a piece, really, and will withstand rearranging just fine. And everybody has a right to do anything he or she wants to any piece of music at any time. It may or may not be accepted by all, but even Bach rearranged his own pieces from time to time. In fact, Cavatina is an ARRANGEMENT of the original movie score.

The OP is, however, choosing an unfriendly key (Eb); the original is in E, and will resonate better with open strings, as well as be easier to play. As for sus chords, try A-MEN.

[Jonah]

I dee no problem with making any arrangement of amy music... it does not mean I would like it (I do not like for example 'classical musi in jazz styles' mostly because they ignore the whole idea of original piece) but it is still personal business...

Cavatina is a song, not a piece, really,

I am not sure how to define difference between a piece and a song in the context... it is different topic maybe.

but Cavatina was composed as a piece for classical guitar (though being a part of film score) and mostly follows classical form in kind of 'neo - romantic' style..

In the context of this certain topic the important thing that it uses common for classics voice-leading and texture just with a bit extended modern harmony..

And what OP called 7sus chords (as they put usually in shortcuts of this piece) is used to indicate this voice-leading and this brings in some misunderstanding... (it happens by the way quite often in Real Books to.. interpreting chord signs correctly requires often knowledge of style)

Because 7sus in pop in jazz - at least to my experience- can be taken as an independent chord not necessarily resolved to dom7

So my idea that it is better to use original score to get clear understanding of voicings instead of interpreting shortcuts

[whiskey02]

Ronjazz, I respectfully very strongly completely disagree with you. May I ask if you play classical music, or if you ever have?

[Guitarzen]

Sorry whiskey02, but you are in fact, flat wrong on this one. Any piece is open to interpretation or re-arrangement. I do in fact play classical guitar, and I've been around enough classical musicians to know that a large proportion are extremely uptight and anal retentive about being absolutely bound to sheet music and are a complete black hole of creativity. I do agree that in the context of a classical guitar concert, one should stay fairly strict to the score. But there are plenty of more casual situations where it would be completely fine to do different arrangements of any piece of music. It is not disrespectful and it does not mean the musician is incompetent for doing so.

I've also seen many arrangements of popular pieces done by highly respected classical musicians and/or composers, and it wasn't considered disrespectful for them to do so. So why would it be disrespectful for me to make a different arrangement of something they wrote? You are asking for a double standard. As a composer, I would not find it in any disrespectful if someone took a piece I wrote and did something different with it, as long as they gave credit to me for the composition and made it clear they were doing their own arrangement. Hell, they might even do a better arrangement than me! I would applaud them for this, not berate them! A draconian mindset doesn't work well with the arts...you really need the exact opposite.

[Jonah]

whiskey02,

music is not the text, the text is as conventional as any other sign system.... even when text is part of tradition

interpretation is vast and very individual area or arts...

take Glenn Gould's early Beethoven records which ignored many composers' indications and nevertheless are very covincing are more Beethoven to me than those who follow the text ... or modern HIPP musicians...

modern classical players often learn to follow texts litterally and precisely

and they remind actors wholearnt the part with perfect pronunciation in the language they do not understsnd

[whiskey02]

Guitarzen, I respectfully very strongly completely disagree with you. No hard feelings, we just have different mindsets. Your thoughts are right for you, mine are correct for me. I would also never buy a painting and then add or remove a color to it so that it better matched my living room. I own the piece and can do whatever I please, but I would never do that, not with a Van Gogh nor a $15 score from a local art fair.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Guitarzen, I respectfully very strongly completely disagree with you. No hard feelings, we just have different mindsets. Your thoughts are right for you, mine are correct for me. I would also never buy a painting and then add or remove a color to it so that it better matched my living room. I own the piece and can do whatever I please, but I would never do that, not with a Van Gogh nor a $15 score from a local art fair.

You can do what you want for yourself, but to be fair, you were attaching moral equivalency to it in your previous post. And you're basically disagreeing with many great classical performers and composers/arrangers (as well as poplar music) going back hundreds of years.

[Jonah]

I would also never buy a painting and then add or remove a color to it so that it better matched my living room. I own the piece and can do whatever I please, but I would never do that, not with a Van Gogh nor a $15 score from a local art fair.

painting is completed piece of art, whatever means it uses as a result it is not conventional, it is absolute... as it is..
And even with that we should be deep in the context enough to able to appreciate it...
When the expert says that this line' does not look like 'Botticelli's' - is it basically not the same as making amendments in composers score?


musical score is conventional and relative... it is not music... it is signs to write music down...

Even modern extremely developed notation system is just a set of signs that can be ibterpreted very differently on cultural and individual level...

What was 'fast' in baroque time?
What was 'fast' personally for Bach?
And when he used foreinn word Presto did he understood exactly in the same way as modern Italian or Englich?

Composers could be negligent prejudiced persons too by the way!

Composing music is one thing! Writing it down is another!
He could be genius in composing and lazy negligent while putting it down...

Good composers were often poor arrangers...
Mahler was practicing conductors and changed orchestrations many times depending on the hall acoustics... (can we do it?)


After all.. the mistakes.. copyists and publishers.. and even composers make mistakes in writing and printing...

I am not even speaking about correcting it.. But are we capable to identify a mistake? Or we just trust blindly a printed sign?

A few years ago they publushed unknown Mozart's works... it was sensation: many people admired it... meanwhile I am sure it is not Mozart... what can I do with that?

We maybe wrong of course too.. but on the other hand if we really love it we should be daring enough to do it...

[whiskey02]

The Spanish guitar has a very small repertoire written for it so if you're playing Bach on guitar you're playing a transcription. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the transcription does everything possible to maintain the original character of the piece, the composers intentions, and the original style of the piece. While I credit the service that Segovia did bringing Bach to the guitar and a wide audience, having jumped into the deep end of baroque music and its interpretation, I can no longer listen to Segovia's Bach because his transcriptions and interpretation are heavily influenced by his connection with romantic music. Same deal with MJQ screwing with Bach, great musicians ruining great music. Cavatina on the other hand was specifically composed for guitar, the "arrangement" is written into the composition, there is no good reason to make any alterations. It is a beautiful piece of music which we can enjoy exactly as the composer wrote it, if you don't like it don't play it.
I think I've made my opinion on this topic very clear so I'll bow out of this thread.

[Jonah]

I can no longer listen to Segovia's Bach because his transcriptions and interpretation are heavily influenced by his connection with romantic music

I still love it because the level of musicality is fantastic and practically unsurpassed and essentially it is more Bach for me than authentic HIPP

Cavatina on the other hand was specifically composed for guitar, the "arrangement" is written into the composition, there is no good reason to make any alterations. It is a beautiful piece of music which we can enjoy exactly as the composer wrote it, if you don't like it don't play it.

I had a feeling the OP wants to make kind of jazz style arrangement based on melody and chords.. it is different than classical guitar

me deal with MJQ screwing with Bach, great musicians ruining great music.

I hate these Bach records

I think I've made my opinion on this topic very clear so I'll bow out of this thread.

No problem... though I personally prefer conversation to opinions

[Guitarzen]

And even though whiskey has run away from an argument he clearly can't win, I'd like to point out that earlier this week I was practicing two arrangements by Roland Dyens, one of the most respected classical guitarists in the world. And *gasp* his arrangements were completely different than the composer's own arrangements!!! Roland has many arrangements of works by other composers. He tends to stay true to the original when arranging music by classical composers, but when arranging more popular tunes for example jazz tunes, he does whatever the f#$#$ he wants with it. Now you could argue "Well that's the norm for jazz tunes, it's expected that you do whatever the f$#$# you want". That would be a reasonable argument, but on the flip side what is the exact reason it shouldn't be allowed for a piece written by someone like Bach? The real answer as I alluded to earlier is simply "because classical musicians are uptight control freaks". Sorry, that's not a good enough reason.

Now I'm willing to admit that the norm is to not do a complete re-arrangement of a tune by someone like Bach or Debussy or whoever, but that doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong about doing so, if someone chooses to. It doesn't even matter what the composer wants or doesn't want. Once you put your art out into the world, you have no right to try and control other artists from doing what they will with the ideas presented. If anything you should feel grateful that other artists want to play your music and do variations on it. But according to whiskey, your an inferior disrespectful artist if you do this. Earlier this week as I mentioned, I was working on Roland Dyens' arrangement of 'Round Midnight. That arrangement has been performed by Roland as well as many other notable classical guitarists at classical guitar concerts, and I'm pretty sure nobody got up in disgust and left because the arrangement was different than Monk's. But if Roland were to take a Bach melody and have fun with it and make a unique arrangement of it, that would be heresy, and everyone should immediately leave the concert in disgust. Well ok, Roland hasn't done such a Bach arrangement. But he has done for example an arrangement of Baden Powell's "Berimbau" which was written for and arranged specifically for guitar by Baden. Roland's arrangement is nothing at all like Baden's. And yet there was not a big uproar in the classical guitar world. Nobody ever gets up in disgust and leaves at a Roland Dyens concert. Why is that? Hmmm...oh yeah whiskey is not there. I'm sure if he was, he would be the one person getting up and leaving in disgust, or would he? Wouldn't whiskey be a hippocrite if he didn't immediately get up and leave at Dyens' rendetion of "Berimbau" or "'Round Midnight"? Oh but wait, Baden Powell and Thelonious Monk were both black so their music doesn't deserve the "respect" of not being re-arranged, is that how it works whiskey?

Whiskey is wrong on so many levels and he knows he is wrong and that is why he runs away from the thread. His bowing out is the same as saying "I know I'm wrong, but I won't admit it, instead I'll just run away and hide my head in the sand and keep insisting I'm right." This sums up in a nutshell why there is so much f#$#d up bullshit going on in the world, stubborn ignorance & arrogance.

Apologies to the OP as we have slightly derailed the thread now....But hey at least I was fighting for your right to remove the damn sus chord!

[artcore]

I guess Bill Frizell is dishonoring the Beatles by rearranging their classics?.....or is the music produced by this group of artists less important then Bach.....I did an arrangement of Cavatina.....its, I think, one of the most beautiful pieces I have ever heard....I don't use standard tuning, so I had to do a little rearranging.......