Guitar Friendly Keys or Standard?

[John A.]

... Publishers put sheet music in easier keys for the folks at home singin' around dat old, family piana..Then Ipanema spread out into the professional music world as being in F... OK, so I ask you hard heads now, what do you plan to do ?

And mastering engineers play the tape back at the wrong speed and everybody learns the tune a 1/2 step sharp.


John

[lawson-stone]

I was kidding. I'm only spiteful online, never in person. But the confusion about your being disappointed in someone else's choice of key is genuine.

John

Okay I get that. My disappointment is, as I said, purely a personal reaction. It is born of decades of not just hearing, but observing guitarists operating at a lower level of general musicianship than players of other instruments. I did it myself, and once in college somehow got in the "pit band" for a broadway musical being performed on campus. Handed charts in all these different keys, I realized (a) this is not D, C or G and (b) I can't use a capo for this stuff...

So about half the charts I could play, but for about half of them the director either diplomatically found another player who "already knows that style and we want to give him a chance to play..." or decided they didn't need a guitar there.

I guess in all that I decided I wanted to be a player who just didn't have a favorite key, didn't feel like I needed to use "guitar friendly" keys. For me, coming from folk, country and rock, it was liberating. So when I see some standard like "Body and Soul" played in D, when I know the common practice key is Db, yeah, I am disappointed. I don't attributed bad musicianship to the player, but I always root for the guitarist who shows us that it can be done in Db and can totally open a can of it.

It isn't for me about "original" keys or "right" keys but rather the common practice keys that guitarists often grimace and complain about.

And I admit to you: it's mainly an emotional reaction, not rational. My original post was simply to find out if I was alone in feeling (not thinking) that way.

It appears I am actually in a pretty small group, and that likely I need to just get over it!

[henryrobinett]

I don't think you should get over it. I feel similarly and I don't apologize. I think if someone wants to play in whatever key is fine. But yeah, im generally disappointed if I hear someone playing body and soul in D. I even like to listen to it in Db. I get confused if it's in D or E or A. WTF? Too guitaristic for me. But that's just me. Ultimately I want to hear you play.

[John A.]

Okay I get that. My disappointment is, as I said, purely a personal reaction. It is born of decades of not just hearing, but observing guitarists operating at a lower level of general musicianship than players of other instruments.

I don't see how the key someone picks for a song is an indicator of his/her level of musicianship. If you mean something beyond key, such transposing a song so as to be able to use cowboy chords because that's all the player knows how to play, I can see that. But if someone can transpose a song to a different key, and do equally interesting with voicings etc., that's a plus in my mind. Overall, I just don't think of a song as being in a key. I think of key as a choice driven by practical (e.g., the singer's range; leveraging open strings in a solo arrangement) and aesthetic factors . But I've learned over the years that the jazz world is somewhat divided about this.

I did it myself, and once in college somehow got in the "pit band" for a broadway musical being performed on campus. Handed charts in all these different keys, I realized (a) this is not D, C or G and (b) I can't use a capo for this stuff...

So about half the charts I could play, but for about half of them the director either diplomatically found another player who "already knows that style and we want to give him a chance to play..." or decided they didn't need a guitar there.

I guess in all that I decided I wanted to be a player who just didn't have a favorite key, didn't feel like I needed to use "guitar friendly" keys. For me, coming from folk, country and rock, it was liberating. So when I see some standard like "Body and Soul" played in D, when I know the common practice key is Db, yeah, I am disappointed. I don't attributed bad musicianship to the player, but I always root for the guitarist who shows us that it can be done in Db and can totally open a can of it.

I see no difference in difficulty between one key and another. I'm a poor reader -- I basically can't sightread melodies, but can learn a melody from the page given (a lot of) time. However I can read chord names on the fly, improvise subs and voicings, and pick up the functional harmony (or fail to) pretty well, at least for tunes with fairly obvious things going on harmonically. I can solo in one key as well/poorly in one key as another. Key is not a factor in this for me at all. My response to "here's a chart, it's in Db" would never be "oh, do you have it in D? Db is a hard key for me." It might be, "a chart? Uh, oh," but that's a different subject.

It isn't for me about "original" keys or "right" keys but rather the common practice keys that guitarists often grimace and complain about.

I don't think I've ever experienced another guitar player of my not-very-high level complain about a key per se, but I guess my experience is somewhat exceptional. I've really only come across this in players at the bar-chord/cowboy-chord level. I've also found that what people think of the "common key" varies, especially between people who learned versions from the Real Book vs other sources.

And I admit to you: it's mainly an emotional reaction, not rational. My original post was simply to find out if I was alone in feeling (not thinking) that way.

It appears I am actually in a pretty small group, and that likely I need to just get over it!

I've had conversations similar to this over the years. Bottom line -- it matters more to some than to others (e.g., some people have strong, almost synesthetic reactions to particular keys). But one should be able to at least muddle through any tune in whatever key it's called in at a jam. That's a basic skill set, IMO, and I think that's a pretty widely shared opinion.

John

[lawson-stone]

I don't see how the key someone picks for a song is an indicator of his/her level of musicianship. If you mean something beyond key, such transposing a song so as to be able to use cowboy chords because that's all the player knows how to play, I can see that. But if someone can transpose a song to a different key, and do equally interesting with voicings etc., that's a plus in my mind. Overall, I just don't think of a song as being in a key. I think of key as a choice driven by practical (e.g., the singer's range; leveraging open strings in a solo arrangement) and aesthetic factors . But I've learned over the years that the jazz world is somewhat divided about this.



I see no difference in difficulty between one key and another. I'm a poor reader -- I basically can't sightread melodies, but can learn a melody from the page given (a lot of) time. However I can read chord names on the fly, improvise subs and voicings, and pick up the functional harmony (or fail to) pretty well, at least for tunes with fairly obvious things going on harmonically. I can solo in one key as well/poorly in one key as another. Key is not a factor in this for me at all. My response to "here's a chart, it's in Db" would never be "oh, do you have it in D? Db is a hard key for me." It might be, "a chart? Uh, oh," but that's a different subject.



I don't think I've ever experienced another guitar player of my not-very-high level complain about a key per se, but I guess my experience is somewhat exceptional. I've really only come across this in players at the bar-chord/cowboy-chord level. I've also found that what people think of the "common key" varies, especially between people who learned versions from the Real Book vs other sources.



I've had conversations similar to this over the years. Bottom line -- it matters more to some than to others (e.g., some people have strong, almost synesthetic reactions to particular keys). But one should be able to at least muddle through any tune in whatever key it's called in at a jam. That's a basic skill set, IMO, and I think that's a pretty widely shared opinion.

John

You've certainly made your point and clearly your feelings about it are quite strong. I've got nothing else to say on it.

Thanks!

[henryrobinett]

John - Although you weren't referring to me - I personally have no problem with playing in different keys. That's not my issue at all. Guitar players play in "guitar keys." Guitar players can't read. Guitar players can't play on changes. Guitar players turn everything into a rock blues. Guitar players can't comp. Can't swing. Turn everything modal.

You know. Obviously on this board we don't suffer all or most of the guitar player ailments. But personally I've worked hard to overcome most of them. I guess part of it is I've never listened to a LOT of guitar players. So my jazz culture comes form tenor, alto, trumpet and piano, mostly.

[John A.]

John - Although you weren't referring to me - I personally have no problem with playing in different keys. That's not my issue at all. Guitar players play in "guitar keys." Guitar players can't read. Guitar players can't play on changes. Guitar players turn everything into a rock blues. Guitar players can't comp. Can't swing. Turn everything modal.

You know. Obviously on this board we don't suffer all or most of the guitar player ailments. But personally I've worked hard to overcome most of them. I guess part of it is I've never listened to a LOT of guitar players. So my jazz culture comes form tenor, alto, trumpet and piano, mostly.

I agree that there is a phenomenon of guitar players who lack a basic jazz skill (and maybe have a decent blues or rock skill set) set trying to insert themselves into jazz contexts before they're ready. If you do this when you're 17, cool, at least you're trying something new. If you do that continuously for years without advancing, not so cool. There probably are more guitar players doing the former than, say horn players. Probably this is because horn players are more likely to learn the basics of the instrument and the basics of jazz simultaneously, whereas guitar players are more likely to come to jazz after learning another genre first, via methods that teach them more about where to put their fingers than about what's going on functionally in a tune. But the latter (i.e., guitar players stuck forever in non-jazz skills continuing to play jazz)? IME experience, not all that common. But as I've said a couple of times, I don't assume my experience is typical, I just offer it as another data point in the conversation. For instance at the jam session I frequent there are players ranging from fairly cluelessly not good (small minority) to working pros (good size plurality), with a bunch more at various points in between, more or less evenly distributed across instruments. I don't see guitar players as disproportionately at the bottom.

Personally, I work hard to get better, period, not to overcome guitar-player guilt-by-association.

John

[WilliamScott]

My late pal, Paul Quarrington, bless his soul, frequently told a story about learning "original keys" centered around his attempts to play "Yesterday" in it's official key of F. He finally wrote the story in his last published book. Following is from that:

"
I happened to be visiting a few months back, and [my friend] Michael played me the most interesting thing, a recording of Paul McCartney teaching the others the chords to his new song, “Yesterday.” “F major,” he says, “E minor, A seventh, D minor—” McCartney leaves off his rhythmic intoning momentarily and says, “Don’t watch my hand, the guitar’s tuned down so I’m playing in G.” The significance of this may well be lost upon you, but me, why, I was gobsmacked. I had spent much of my life grumbling about this, the fucking F that began the song “Yesterday” and all this time McCartney wasn’t even playing one, he’d cunningly tuned his guitar down a whole tone so that he could strum a Cowboy G. "

The (much elaborated) full story is in his book, Cigar Box Banjo.

What I take from all this:
Guitar friendly = good music (often)
"Official/accepted" key = meaningless

[henryrobinett]

I'm on the road, pulled over after getting gas so I don't have time to quote etc. don't get me wrong. I'm not suffering guitar player "guilt." But this has been a motivating factor since high school.

Also I think you don't find many guitarist playing at the level of horns and pianists is guitar is simply harder.

Gotta go.

[John A.]

I'm on the road, pulled over after getting gas so I don't have time to quote etc. don't get me wrong. I'm not suffering guitar player "guilt." But this has been a motivating factor since high school.

Also I think you don't find many guitarist playing at the level of horns and pianists is guitar is simply harder.

Gotta go.

"At the level of" in the sense of "16th notes at high BPM," agreed. But that's also a trap for other insturmentalists -- there are lot of horn players who pack a whole lot of nothing into an awful lot of notes.

John

[nowhere man]

Keep in mind that a Bb instrument requires the player to play in the key a whole step higher. This means adding 2 sharp notes or removing 2 flat notes. D becomes E, Bb becomes C. Also, horn players cannot simply move up or down a couple frets and play the same pattern. Flat keys are preferred by horn players for good reasons.

[henryrobinett]

"At the level of" in the sense of "16th notes at high BPM," agreed. But that's also a trap for other insturmentalists -- there are lot of horn players who pack a whole lot of nothing into an awful lot of notes.

John

I don't even know what that means. That's not endemic to an instrument but to the player's taste, ability and ego. I generally don't hear the level of sophistication in the lines or harmonic complexity of Herbie, Chick, Rollins, Hubbard, Brown, Garland, Coltrane, Bird, Adderly, McCoy, Henderson, Cedar Walton, Jarrett, Peterson, -- with most guitar players. A lot of new modern players have seriously stepped up to the plate.

But guitar is simply hard, regardless of shapes. Most other instruments middle C means a specific location on their instrument. Chord voicing, reading swinging, transposition are all challenges multiplied on guitar. Even piano. You have ONE OCTAVE for merely 12 keys that are duplicated up and down the keyboard. Every instrument has their challenges, but I think guitar has a few more, not to mention guitar prejudice.

If you've ever been a judge at high school or colleges jazz band competition you can count the good soloists or jazz players against decent guitar players. You'll always see one or two, but nothing compared to the other instruments. Each band probably has three good soloists. I mean convincing. Rarely a guitarist. I mean of course most guitar players are enamored with Djent and metal and grunge. But not all. Many are jazz freaks but they just can't get the language together yet. It takes a lot of time on guitar.

[Bosko]

Standards could get pretty dull if they were all played or recorded only as originally written. Melodies get altered, progressions reharmonized, key and rhythm changes, all to make them fresh and new.

It seems perfectly natural for a soloist to pick a key to play in that may inspire or enhance their performance.

Re guitar friendly keys - Open strings make some playing techniques easier and some would be virtually impossible without using open strings. So why not change a key if you want to incorporate those techniques into a "standard"? The range of an instrument (soloist) could also dictate the key chosen.

Besides, don't blame the guitarist, he/she probably dumbed it down for the bass player .

[John A.]

I don't even know what that means. That's not endemic to an instrument but to the player's taste, ability and ego. I generally don't hear the level of sophistication in the lines or harmonic complexity of Herbie, Chick, Rollins, Hubbard, Brown, Garland, Coltrane, Bird, Adderly, McCoy, Henderson, Cedar Walton, Jarrett, Peterson, -- with most guitar players. A lot of new modern players have seriously stepped up to the plate.

I don't hear that level of invention in very many people on ANY instrument, period, let alone guitar. Listing some of the most elite, innovative musical forces in the genre and saying "not many guitar players meet this standard" doesn't really say anything about the more general level of guitarists vs other instrumentalists IMO. I could add guitar player names of equal sophistication to that list, and I don't think it would elucidate that question any further.

But guitar is simply hard, regardless of shapes. Most other instruments middle C means a specific location on their instrument. Chord voicing, reading swinging, transposition are all challenges multiplied on guitar. Even piano. You have ONE OCTAVE for merely 12 keys that are duplicated up and down the keyboard. Every instrument has their challenges, but I think guitar has a few more, not to mention guitar prejudice.

I think those challenges might contribute to it taking guitar players longer to reach a degree of fluidity reached more quickly on other instruments, but I don't think it prevents them from reaching it in any absolute sense.

If you've ever been a judge at high school or colleges jazz band competition you can count the good soloists or jazz players against decent guitar players. You'll always see one or two, but nothing compared to the other instruments. Each band probably has three good soloists. I mean convincing. Rarely a guitarist. I mean of course most guitar players are enamored with Djent and metal and grunge. But not all. Many are jazz freaks but they just can't get the language together yet. It takes a lot of time on guitar.

I have very limited experience with school bands, and will take your word for it. I went to a non-music college that happened to have a good jazz band, but it had only one guitar chair (not me). At one point, that chair was held by a very heavy player who went on to a solid career. The guy who replaced him wasn't very good, but the leader of the band really only cared about horns (he was a monster trumpet player himself and took most of the solos).

John

[henryrobinett]

Of course I never meant to imply it was impossible to reach. It only takes longer.

But if course I only gave elites. But I could list in and in lesser known jazz musicians who play with a kind of fluidity and invention not present in most guitarist. Of course chances are you wouldn't know some of them. Bob Berg, Kenny Garrett, Phineas Newborn, Bud Powell, Eruc Dolphy, Bob Shepard, Donny McGaslin, Hank Mobley, Lee Morgan, Dexter, Bobby Hutcherson, Benny Green, Kenny Kirkland,

[John A.]

Of course I never meant to imply it was impossible to reach. It only takes longer.

But if course I only gave elites. But I could list in and in lesser known jazz musicians who play with a kind of fluidity and invention not present in most guitarist. Of course chances are you wouldn't know some of them. Bob Berg, Kenny Garrett, Phineas Newborn, Bud Powell, Eruc Dolphy, Bob Shepard, Donny McGaslin, Hank Mobley, Lee Morgan, Dexter, Bobby Hutcherson, Benny Green, Kenny Kirkland,

Chances are I wouldn't know some of those guys? That's quite a presumption on your part. Should I try (and fail) to name people you've never heard of too? That level of "fluidity" and invention is not present in guitar players of similar repute? Really? Raney, Hall, Pass, Metheny, Wes, Jimmy Ponder, George Benson, Scofield, Monder, Kessel, Farlow, McLoughlin, Coryell, Sharrock, Stern, Krantz, Bernstein? Is there some sort of metric that allows us to say Dolphy>Bernstein, Mobley>Pass, etc?

John

[lawson-stone]

Chances are I wouldn't know some of those guys? That's quite a presumption on your part. Should I try (and fail) to name people you've never heard of too? That level of "fluidity" and invention is not present in guitar players of similar repute? Really? Raney, Hall, Pass, Metheny, Wes, Jimmy Ponder, George Benson, Scofield, Monder, Kessel, Farlow, McLoughlin, Coryell, Sharrock, Stern, Krantz, Bernstein? Is there some sort of metric that allows us to say Dolphy>Bernstein, Mobley>Pass, etc?

John

Let's not turn this into a pissing contest, gentlemen. Nobody is trying to name people you haven't heard of. It's a very common observation that guitarists in general have not been the pace-setters, the standard-setting players, in jazz. Yes some excellent guitarists were there at the beginning of bebop, and most jazz players of any instrument likely know Wes Montgomery, but even Wes is not seen in the broad world of jazz as an innovator on par with, say, Charlie Parker. To counter by naming bunches of outstanding jazz guitarists still begs the question: how many other instrumentalists consciously try to play guitar lines? We guitarists are always talking about playing "hornlike" lines, or "pianistic" styles, or trying to sound like Bird or Miles. But you never hear a trumpet player or sax player or pianist saying "Hey I've been working on some of Tal Farlow's solos to refine my line-playing..."

Guitarists haven't been the pace setters, and when we ask others to adapt to the limitations of our instrument (as we think it needs to be played) we simply confirm to other jazz players that we are second-tier.

[henryrobinett]

OMG. I'm not here to argue. Geez v

[A. Kingstone]

This looks like a good thread. I was struggling with the jazz key versus the guitar key thing while playing Well You Needn't in A.

I'll read through later.

[AllanAllen]

A isn't a guitar key?

[paulkogut]

Bassist Kelly Sill, who played with ALL the piano players, (Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Cedar Walton, etc) said that he took his best solos with Herb comping for him because his time was SO strong...

PK

[A. Kingstone]

I don't mind getting up higher on the neck with a band...but if I'm truly alone, solo, some things just don't sound as good.

Bottom line is, if you're playing with others, you gotta let your cute little arrangements go and play in accepted keys.

That's good advice.

[A. Kingstone]

A isn't a guitar key?

One of the best.

[Bobby Timmons]

For keyboard instruments, the flat jazz keys are easy and the sharp guitar keys are hard. I was literally inept at playing tunes in the non jazz keys so I decided I'd had it and I've been playing in every key since almost 2 years ago. I play all my stuff in 1 key for several days and then go up a half step and repeat. It also peeves me to always play the same songs in 1 easy key. So I actually have the opposite peeve, I want to put songs into guitar keys.

[jackalGreen]

So I actually have the opposite peeve, I want to put songs into guitar keys.

Ditto. As a pianist (and only a so-so Hammond organist), only recently shedding as hard as my laziness will allow on guitar, I've been doing this on keys for a while.

I might have got the idea from Bill Evans, but it really snapped to attention a number of years ago when I went back to some of the Bach sets (inventions, sinfonie, WTC) that require some ingenuity on keyboard to play in the sharp keys.

Very different than just playing blues at the keyboard in the "regular" keys you hear at jam sessions with the long line of guitarists waiting their turn (A, E, B, D).

Playing in A major is tricky on the keys, IMHO, for anything mildly complicated...the fingers have to get way up toward the fallboard....but it is a technique that has already been solved in classical literature.

When I started back up again guitar, just from zero....forgetting everything about minor pentatonics and riffs and power chords and all that...I had it in mind from the very beginning to learn tunes in Bb, Eb, Cm, Ab, C, F. For me it was about deliberately avoiding any kind of cowboy chords and learning the fretboard in a more abstract way than I thought about it as a young teenager screwing around copying Jimmy Page and all that, playing in boxes and running blues licks.