How many play note-for-note versus on-the-spot improvised?

[rickshapiro]

I've struggled over the last few years attempting to build a solo guitar repertoire. I've brought many books with full arrangements and usually fail to either fully get through a piece or once learned really retain that piece. I start with good intentions but lose momentum when I hit something technically outside of my comfort zone or hit something I just do not like musically and in the end just get bored and have no desire to finish.

I've come slowly to the conclusion that this is not the way for me to move forward. Although my own arrangements may not be very mature or sophisticated, I feel I am making more progress just taking a lead sheet and "winging" it. Not two times I play is the arrangement the same and I am not so confident with it. I have more work to do in this area as I tend to stop and start and really need to play through for good or bad.

I am just wondering if others have gone down this same path and have come to the same conclusion?

Regards,

Rick

[Whirly]

I've learned a few arrangements note-for-note as well. Both from books and transcriptions. It is a struggle, and I've never been happy with the results. The tune never feels like it's mine, I can easily get lost while playing - even after years, and I'm kind of embarrassed playing someone else's arrangement for others. Eventually I decided not to learn that way any longer, and those painfully learned tunes floundered in my repertoire.

Recently, I decided to actually learn one of my previously memorized songs. It made all the difference in the world. I now always know where I am at, and I've found I can pop in pieces of the memorized arrangement as I see fit. It doesn't seem like a waste now though I'll not go back to note-for-note memorization.

[P4guitar]

I long ago decided that the recital approach was not for me. It was always more important to develop a personal approach and was the only way to stay motivated.

[pkirk]

pre-arranging and eventually improvising solo jazz guitar is a huge plus no matter what your
jazz guitar goals are. it's easier to learn tunes, to remember tunes, etc, but even when you play with others
you don;t get lost as often, you pepper your single note stuff with chords, which leaves space, you comp
better because you previously figured out different voicings to match the melody (and you can spell snippets of the melody
as you comp). I think it is a very effective way to progress.

[mr. beaumont]

I never learned anyone's arrangements. Partially out of stubbornness ("that's not jazz, man, I gotta be improvising"), laziness ("dang, that's a lot to remember") and partially out of the actual idea that understanding and doing would teach me more than memorizing an arrangement I could have never come up with on my own...

And truthfully, nothing taught me more than doing it myself. Yeah, it was slow at first, but now I can sit down and play tunes from memory and improvise freely because I'm not married to an "arrangement."

And actually, now I CAN look at other people's arrangements and glean ideas because I "get" where they're coming from.

[Stanford J17]

Everytime when it seems like I'm not getting any further with my own attempts, I ask myself the same question.

After two years I've settled right in the middle. I do most of my arrangements on my own and from time to time I learn an arrangement of somebody else.
And those are the reasons:
1. I once learned a few finger style arrangements (no jazz). When I had a gig with my singer, I tried to play 2 or 3 of them. And almost always I forgot one chord in the bridge or elsewhere and stumbled.
2. I think learning arrangements from others, would be the fastest way to build a repertoire. But it would be quite hard to keep everything in shape (as you said and I repeated in point 1). So if I wanted to do it just to get gigs as soon as possible, I would probably have gone this way. But I decided that I want to do it because I love it so much. And so I wanted to do it right!
3. Learning arrangements from others is like transcribing a solo. It has a little value on its own, but the big value comes when you start to work with the ideas you learned. Transpose it in to different keys. Some things will still work and others won't. So you have to come up with some solutions. Try to mix and match some original ideas with your own ideas. Try to arrange a similar tune alike...

This masterclass really got me started:
Chord melody arranging & soloing inspired by George Van Eps | Less | Mike's Master Classes

Greets Christoph

[artcore]

I did force myself to learn 6 or 7 Barry Galbraith tunes, almost note for note...That was a struggle....Then I tried to remember them and that was impossible....Their is value to it as you point out......

[mangotango]

Learning arrangements from others is like transcribing a solo. It has a little value on its own, but the big value comes when you start to work with the ideas you learned. Transpose it in to different keys. Some things will still work and others won't. So you have to come up with some solutions. Try to mix and match some original ideas with your own ideas. Try to arrange a similar tune alike...

This. 100%, this.

[Russ Kapp]

My first instrument was the piano at age 6.......I am self taught on the guitar ( ADHD ).......thus, I play the guitar like a piano....." piano-istically " . Rather than concentrating on note-to-note memorization and modal scale lock step exercises I approached the challenge from the chordal/voicing building angle and play from the moveable memorized chord forms as the base. since my favorite style is somewhere between Chet Atkins and Wes Montgomery I tend to arrange and re-arrange my material in the spirit of these greats in the guitar world. I also play gigs where I am functioning as " sonic wallpaper " i.e., background instrumental solo restaurant and club gigs where the performance anxiety has less of a grip on me......Maybe this is all " cheating " but so far all this has worked for me, if for no other reason, a happy camper over here, nice compliments from passive listeners and a cheerful tip jar

[Uffe Steen]

I don't do the same arrangement 2 times. I wing the tune (as you do) with what I know about chords.
Then again, Ifind bits and pieces from other players, also pianist, to put into my own playing. Im sure the disciplined players that can transcribe a whole solopiece will benefit from that, but still its very important to practice putting something together on your own.

[Larry Feldman]

I play 2 Earl Klugh arrangements and that's it. The rest is improvised. Other arrangements I've worked on never stuck with me.

[Stanford J17]

Two other things that came to my mind:

1. Most arrangements you find in books are just arrangements of the melody. So with a typical jazz-standard of 32 bars and a tempo between 90 and 120 bpm they are 1.00 to 1.30 minutes in length. So unless you want to play it two times in a row, you have to come up with some sort of a "solo-part" or really have to know almost 100 tune to fill two hours.

2. It really helps to learn the song (melody and chords) before you learn the arrangement. Because otherwise it is just a bunch of unconnected chord-grips you have to remember. And that is pretty tough, as stated many times above.

[Cunamara]

I have my own arrangements and I find I tend to approximate them, I suppose because those arrangements are just how I think whereas other people's arrangements are how they think. That makes it harder to remember.

[TH]

When I started out, I wanted, more than anything else, to be able to "possess" the ability to play solo. It was magical, whether Joe Pass, Julian Bream, John McLaughlin... I wanted that by any means; that sound was what I loved. So I sought out classical instruction, jazz instruction, classical sheet music, arrangements of jazz solo pieces and painstakingly taught them to my fingers.
As I learned more about the music, the structure, sound and techniques of realizing sound on the instrument, through a gradual process puzzling out my own way became more satisfying. The challenge of each arrangement was exciting and I came to love that process.
Now a solo isn't just a piece of music, it's a fresh challenge to employ all I know in a way that I haven't played before. I love the sense of discovery, much more than I love the performance. That's what I love and I work to find a completely new arrangement each and every time I play.
We are compelled to play what we love, it's been a steady process to keep convenience and habit from my getting there.
David

[mrbean]

I change things every night, just ask my poor bass player!

[wizard3739]

I don't use arrangements except those I create myself. In truth, I used to read and play mostly from the Real Books but as I gained more "on stage" experience, I discovered I can play almost anything by ear. For me, that achievement was number one on my bucket list. I hear music ideas much better than I can read, and, as a result, everything I play is in the instant as needed and different each time. I know my approach to playing is "old fashioned" as a result of many years of listening to my favorite jazz people. I do like and listen to some of the new young players but I don't think I am influenced by them.

wiz

[Reg]

I almost hate to say this... But if you read well, you don't need to memorize everything. And reading well, which with jazz implies understanding what the notation implies or could imply... anyway makes on the spot chord melody arrangements pretty simple and very entertaining. There are no real short cuts... there are just more efficient methods of reaching your goals. (or just reaching those goals at all).

[jtizzle]

I try to make a balance of both. I start off by a coming up with a memorized arrangement, then for most chords, I find a few different, interesting and non-stock way of voicing them, and eventually mix and match from there. A guy that totally perplexes me is Bernstein. I've asked him during lessons and hangs about his solo guitar stuff, which he always tells me he never really memorizes things, but knows the songs so well he can just improvise the tunes.

[Dutchbopper]

Since I consider jazz to be improvised music playing pre-arranged chord melodies does not even qualify as jazz IMHO. Nice learning tool but that's about it. I once heard a guy playing a pretty impressive jazz arrangement. It turned out he was a classical guitarist that could not improvise on a blues even. So much for chops. Youtube is loaded with guys playing prefab chord melody jazz. I did my share probably too

But I guess for chord melody learning a great tool.

DB

[fep]

My first 'big-boy' tune I learned was Classical Gas. I was around 12 years old if memory serves. The tune was way above my ability. I practiced that tune so much, so much repetition, and working on small sections of the tune, it all ended up being muscle memory.

It was a great note-for-note show-off tune. It was the first time anyone said, "you play well".

I think that tune was instrumental in my guitar playing becoming a lifetime pursuit.

I still play classical pieces note for note, usually with the sheet music open so I don't get lost. For me playing something note-for-note is much more risky in a performance. If you get lost, you are sunk.

I don't play any jazz tunes note-for-note.

[Flyin' Brian]

I learned a few of Johnny Smith's solo ballad arrangements for a few reasons. The first was that it gave me a much better insight as to what he was doing in terms of the inner voice movement of chord changes. The second was my wife is The Maiden With The Flaxen Hair, and I learned Johnny's arrangement for her. Johnny was the first jazz guitarist that I heard back when I was a budding player. I was clueless and determined that one day I would understand what he was doing. The final reason was who the heck can play his up tempo stuff anyway?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I memorized several finger style showcase pieces back in the day. It's a ton of work to keep those things up. Since i started doing CM with jazz, I can't imagine doing that anymore. Way more fun to do them yourself and have some improvisation aspects. I've got a ways to go toward being real hip with it, esp. re. voicings, and improv, but freedom is sweet. I'll take simple and ME over hipper and SOMEONE ELSE...

I DO eventually want to transcribe or otherwise learn some good reharm versions from some piano and guitar bigs, because I think doing THAT on-the-fly takes a little more than just theoretical head-knowledge and some passive listening.

Re-harmonization options for any given melody note are almost limitless. Need to get some frames of reference under my fingers and ears....

[christianm77]

Since I consider jazz to be improvised music playing pre-arranged chord melodies does not even qualify as jazz IMHO. Nice learning tool but that's about it. I once heard a guy playing a pretty impressive jazz arrangement. It turned out he was a classical guitarist that could not improvise on a blues even. So much for chops. Youtube is loaded with guys playing prefab chord melody jazz. I did my share probably too

But I guess for chord melody learning a great tool.

DB

Being devil's advocate for a second -

First is jazz necessarily improvised music? And to what extent should improvisation be 'fresh and new' each time, or a process of distillation?

We know from the world musics out there that have an improvised element, and from earlier eras of classical music that jazz has no specific claim on the practice. I do not believe improvisation to be the key feature of this music, even if it is intimately associated with it.

It's known that early on Jelly Roll Morton and Duke Ellington were very interested in arranging their music to the exclusion of improvisation in many cases - to be honest there was probably a lot of 'devised improvisation' (i.e. what was that you did? Do it in the show!) back then as well as outright composition. Is that music not jazz?

The arranger's craft is one of the most important and venerable in jazz - something you kind of miss, if like me, you spend most of your life playing in bands of 5 pieces or less.

Aside from famous 'true improvisors' such as Sonny Rollins and Warne Marsh, many famous jazz musicians essentially refine their ideas over time, so that their solos tend to be note for note the same every night, but evolving. Even in Miles's groups, tunes would be played every night and slowly evolve over time. I think many chord melody arrangements do this over time - mine do. I tend to come up with a few things that work and insert improvised material.

I feel over time my solo playing is become more improvised - this is how I want it to be, but I'm not saying that that is 'correct' or even 'better jazz.' I simply enjoy this more and find it easier to do for a gig than learning a bunch of arrangements.

Secondly, if you enjoy someone's music, does it matter if it's improvised or not? If someone plays a written arrangement and it sounds great, is that invalid (as long as they don't claim the arrangement is their own?)

I say this as it is often a criticism levelled against Martin Taylor. I enjoy his music, while acknowledging it is very much a 'show.' You have to hand it to him though, he knows how to arrange on guitar.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I love the idea of jazz players having a "need" to improvise beyond performance for an audience....meeting up after playing their own individual gigs just to jam and see where the music takes them.

I feel over time my solo playing is become more improvised - this is how I want it to be, but I'm not saying that that is 'correct' or even 'better jazz.' I simply enjoy this more and find it easier to do for a gig than learning a bunch of arrangements.

+1

I say this as it is often a criticism levelled against Martin Taylor. I enjoy his music, while acknowledging it is very much a 'show.' You have to hand it to him though, he knows how to arrange on guitar.

It's funny. In playing solo, my early aspirations were to be able to improvise something that was fully realized like an arrangement, ....but in the moment....

Now.... when I DO improvise something that is more developed (at least for me) with bass line or whatever, my immediate thought is, "that sounds too arranged. How can I make my improv sound more improvised?" :-)

I would imagine Taylor can improvise pretty well solo if you put him to it.

[eh6794]

Try something different then. If you have your theory down, go over to Scribd and search Woody Shaw. Some guy did a paper analysis of his solos. Above the solo he has the chord, below he has the substituted scale scale Woody is playing.

Play each note, then in your head, make sense of what Woody is doing ie b2, 5, b2, 7 etc.

Play the notes of the solo while one of your fingers sits on the root. You know the root because its written. You'll hear how the solo notes sound with the root now in the back.

Just play around and listen to what's going on.

Ps, Scribd has almost every book you could ask for and its free.