How many play note-for-note versus on-the-spot improvised?

[PaulW10]

Being devil's advocate for a second

I think your post is right on christianm77! And I really appreciate that you replied to Dutchbopper. When I read his post I thought it was the most absurd thing ever posted on this forum (no disrespect intended Dutchbooper)

[fep]

Since I consider jazz to be improvised music playing pre-arranged chord melodies does not even qualify as jazz IMHO. Nice learning tool but that's about it. I once heard a guy playing a pretty impressive jazz arrangement. It turned out he was a classical guitarist that could not improvise on a blues even. So much for chops. Youtube is loaded with guys playing prefab chord melody jazz. I did my share probably too

But I guess for chord melody learning a great tool.

DB

I think your post is right on christianm77! And I really appreciate that you replied to Dutchbopper. When I read his post I thought it was the most absurd thing ever posted on this forum (no disrespect intended Dutchbooper)

Maybe there is a mis-communication here? Not sure.

Dutchbopper did not say, chord-melody playing does not qualify as jazz.

He said, pre-arranged chord melodies do not qualify as jazz.

There's a big difference there.

I do agree with Dutchbopper. Playing a pre-arranged jazz tune in a jazz style does not make someone a jazz musician (maybe they are maybe they are not). There is nothing wrong with playing pre-arranged tunes, Johnny Smith made a career out of it. And I dig what Johnny Smith did. It's just more akin to a classical guitar approach than a jazz approach.

[Dutchbopper]

I think your post is right on christianm77! And I really appreciate that you replied to Dutchbopper. When I read his post I thought it was the most absurd thing ever posted on this forum (no disrespect intended Dutchbooper)

No disrespect intended? Seems you either misread my post or simply do not know what you are talking about.
Let me quote WIKI:

"While jazz is considered difficult to define, improvisation is consistently regarded as being one of its key elements. The centrality of improvisation in jazz is attributed to its presence in influential earlier forms of music: the early blues, a form of folk music which arose in part from the work songs and field hollers of the African-American workers on plantations. These were commonly structured around a repetitive call-and-response pattern, but early blues was also highly improvisational."

Pre-arranged is the key word here. PRE-ARRANGED. Can you even read? No disrespect intended, just like you

Geez. This is exactly why I hardly ever reply here.

DB

[Bikewer]

I was afraid I was pretty much an outlier, but it looks like I'm pretty much on the same page with many of these replies.
I've been playing for a long time, since the 70s....Mostly "roots" music. Bluegrass and folk and singer-songwriter stuff.
It's only recently that I've gotten more seriously into fingerstyle chord melody stuff. ( I had a brief fling back in the late 80s but I was playing a big 'ol Martin D-18 at the time... Not the optimal jazz box.)

I listened to a Joe Pass lesson on YouTube and he said basically to figure the melody out and find chords that sound good. I generally try to play through a tune relatively "straight" and then have a go at improvisation. I'm at the point where sometimes this works and sometimes there are clams....

But it's fun. I'm 68, don't play professionally, and since I'm still in law enforcement with the scheduling and all, don't get to jam with others hardly at all.

[Dutchbopper]

[QUOTE=fep;477760]

Maybe there is a mis-communication here? Not sure.

Dutchbopper did not say, chord-melody playing does not qualify as jazz.

He said, pre-arranged chord melodies do not qualify as jazz.

There's a big difference there.

I do agree with Dutchbopper. Playing a pre-arranged jazz tune in a jazz style does not make someone a jazz musician (maybe they are maybe they are not). There is nothing wrong with playing pre-arranged tunes, Johnny Smith made a career out of it. And I dig what Johnny Smith did. It's just more akin to a classical guitar approach than a jazz approach.

Indeed I never said that. And yes, playing a chord melody arrangement from some book note for note is not really in the jazz tradition. It sounds like jazz but that's about it. Nice for learning, just like playing etudes.

You simply can't be a serious jazz musician if you cannot improvise (really well). It's a conditio sine qua non. You can dabble in jazz playing form sheet music, but that's about it.

DB

[mr. beaumont]

^^^this.

Improvisation is the soul of jazz. It is the norm. Sure, there's exceptions, but improv us the norm.

[Dutchbopper]

^^^this.

Improvisation is the soul of jazz. It is the norm. Sure, there's exceptions, but improv us the norm.

I can't believe I am even seriously arguing about this simple fact here on a jazz forum with guys like Paul. Incredible.

Beam me up Scotty.

DB

[Dutchbopper]

And no, this is not jazz either, just an exercise:

DB

[matt.guitarteacher]

There probably should be a sticky on this, as it's a recurring point of confusion, and rightly so.

Jazz refers to everything you're talking about in terms of improvisation , but it also describes generally a style of playing. You can hear a couple of tunes played two different ways and decide just by listening which one sounds like jazz with or without knowledge of whether it's really improvised. When you say the jazz is inherently improvised , I know exactly what you're talking about , but there are many people who don't.

There's a lot of music that's improvised, even music that's improvise on Great American songbook tunes that isn't jazz.

Add to that confusion the fact that jazz players improvise on tunes which are not necessarily jazz tunes depending on who's playing them . Many people think the great American songbook tunes equal jazz. Of course it's certainly not that simple.

[acoustictones]

There probably should be a sticky on this, as it's a recurring point of confusion, and rightly so.

Jazz refers to everything you're talking about in terms of improvisation , but it also describes generally a style of playing. You can hear a couple of tunes played two different ways and decide just by listening which one sounds like jazz with or without knowledge of whether it's really improvised. When you say the jazz is inherently improvised , I know exactly what you're talking about , but there are many people who don't.

There's a lot of music that's improvised, even music that's improvise on Great American songbook tunes that isn't jazz.

Add to that confusion the fact that jazz players improvise on tunes which are not necessarily jazz chins depending on his playing them . Many people think the great American songbook tunes equal jazz. Of course it's certainly not that simple.

Well said sir. +1

[Dutchbopper]

There's a lot of arranged material being played in jazz. Many of my favourite recordings contain arranged parts, be it in small group or orchestra format. But there has never been a single jazz master ever who could not improvise very, very well. By the way, the idea that Johnny Smith played pre-arranged stuff only is ludicrous.

DB

[eddy b.]

I have learned a few Ed Bickert arrangements that I could do note for note years ago but now I wing it. I am lucky to gig a lot and so my repetoire expands by necessity. I had a weekly solo guitar gig for 4 1/2 years that was 4 hours long and thats what helped the most. Along with singing the tunes that really helps in the memorization process cor me . Go with what feels right to you. Good luck!!!

[targuit]

I'm going to jump into this pool, knowing the hazards. It seems to me that even the concept of improvisation needs to be examined. First, unless you are the composer of the song with its melody and harmonies, you are creating variations on a theme composed by someone else. So let us give credit to the composer of the immortal melodies of the standards that have stood the test of time. So, you take a song like Misty - the melody and the harmonies were created by Erroll Garner, not the dude on stage "improvising".

Certainly, improvisation is an important skill, which in my mind means creating variations over a know melody and harmony, which in itself is creative, but also derivative of the composer's original creation. That does not take away from the skill and musicianship required to "improvise", but unless you are improvising totally off the cuff music, you are interpreting the composer's original intent.

Apart from our own original compositions, to play a standard means to learn the melody and harmonies of a song, and then to develop them. That is a skill unto itself. But if you are trying to play Misty and no one can recognize the song, I'm not sure that is successful. So we all learn the melodies and chord progressions of great standards as the raw material for improvisation. Isn't that a form of arranging? After all, you are not randomly playing variations on All the things you are - you are elaborating on Jerome Kern's creation. But if no one recognizes the song, have you not failed to some degree?

Of course, today with Transcribe (don't yet own it) and other tech software, you can transcribe the solos of Charlie Parker and other jazz artists relatively easily. If you have the chops, you can learn to play these solos. And that is requires skill and technique and musicianship, but it is derivative.

I would agree that the great jazz musicians are good improvisers, but not all are composers.

[Dutchbopper]

Apart from our own original compositions, to play a standard means to learn the melody and harmonies of a song, and then to develop them. That is a skill unto itself. But if you are trying to play Misty and no one can recognize the song, I'm not sure that is successful. So we all learn the melodies and chord progressions of great standards as the raw material for improvisation. Isn't that a form of arranging? After all, you are not randomly playing variations on All the things you are - you are elaborating on Jerome Kern's creation. But if no one recognizes the song, have you not failed to some degree?

I would agree that the great jazz musicians are good improvisers, but not all are composers.

I don't get this post at all. I play the melody and the harmony of a song so that everybody knows it's Misty yes. And then I improvise a chorus or two over the harmonies yes. That's the impro part. That's what jazz people often do. Where did I ever state that you have to fuck up the melody so much that nobody recognizes it anymore because otherwise it's not jazz or improvisation? Huh? Where did you get that idea? That's weird. The impro does not apply to the melody that much, though you may change it slightly as you see fit and though you may even reharmonize the changes abit. Playing the melody of a jazz standard you actually call arranging? And about the composing thing, I did not mention that at all so whatever that means beats me too.

[targuit]

Whoa, Dutch! I'm not the enemy! All I'm saying is that when we hear a tune and decide we want to play it, whether by ear purely or by transcribing or reading off the sheet music, we do have to learn the melody and chords. Then we can take improvisatory excursions with the melody. No criticism was intended. I'm just reflecting on what constitutes "improvisation". I admire good improvisation. I'm not suggesting it is derivative or anything. Just giving the composer credit. Jerome Kern, Erroll Garner, Richard Rogers, Tom Jobim... these guys had the creativity and gift of creating timeless melodies. That is not to detract from the skill of interpreters like Stan Getz or Wes Montgomery. My post was just to examine the concept of "improvisation" versus "composition". When you come down to it, good improvisation is often considered a form of "spontaneous composition". I'm on your side, Dutch!

I am classically trained, so I played 'composed music' for years. But I love the freedom and creativity of jazz as opposed to playing set compositions. Not saying one is better than the other. I have a library of personal transcriptions that I create with a notation software program which I use to rehearse at 4 AM in the morning when most sane people are sleeping. Only a jazz nut sits with a computer and improvises over an arrangement, but I don't take credit for writing the original brilliant melody of a Harold Arlen or Jerome Kern.

That is my only point. I would also guess ( and perhaps you know better than I) that a Duke Ellington or Count Basie did a lot of 'arranging' but then counted on the skills of their star musicians to make it "happen". What I was saying is that to learn the song in terms of the melody and harmony is already a kind of arranging. Of course, one could argue that an 'arrangement' is the sheet music written out exactly and that the composer expects the musicians to play the notes he or she wrote and nothing other than those notes. I'm thinking of "arrangement" perhaps in a broader sense. But if you disagree, that is ok with me.

Please don't take what I said as some kind of personal affront. None was intended. I thought it was an open forum for dialogue, not confrontation. And you play a damn good Charlie Parker, btw.

Peace, Brother .... Jay

[fep]

There's a lot of arranged material being played in jazz. Many of my favourite recordings contain arranged parts, be it in small group or orchestra format. But there has never been a single jazz master ever who could not improvise very, very well. By the way, the idea that Johnny Smith played pre-arranged stuff only is ludicrous.

DB

I had read that Johnny Smith had said all his solos where prearranged. I've just done some research and it seems that the quote I had read was untrue. My bad.

Johnny Smith the guy who really wrote Walk Don't Run

[PaulW10]

I don't get this post at all. I play the melody and the harmony of a song so that everybody knows it's Misty yes. And then I improvise a chorus or two over the harmonies yes. That's the impro part. That's what jazz people often do. Where did I ever state that you have to fuck up the melody so much that nobody recognizes it anymore because otherwise it's not jazz or improvisation? Huh? Where did you get that idea? That's weird. The impro does not apply to the melody that much, though you may change it slightly as you see fit and though you may even reharmonize the changes abit. Playing the melody of a jazz standard you actually call arranging? And about the composing thing, I did not mention that at all so whatever that means beats me too.

Dutchbopper you seem to have a difficult time being challenged on anything. You'll drive yourself crazy if you don't lighten up some.

So your first sentence above discredits your whole argument but it's apparently past your comprehension. Do you not have some kind of "pre-arranged" idea in your head of the song in order to "play the melody and the harmony of a song" before you start your improvised noodling and leave everyone wondering what the heck you're now playing?

[targuit]

Here is one of the apparently few videos of Johnny Smith playing live, doing a song I always found very beautiful - What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life. Johnny plays the first couple of verses in an arrangement of sorts - stating the melody and harmony - and then 'solos' in an improv fashion. That is what I intended by having some preconceived sense of what you are playing and then improvising on the melody.

I play this song and intend to put it up soon myself. I'm no JS, but I know the song. I don't need to arrange it note-for-note, and I take a solo in a similar fashion. But obviously improvisation happens within a harmonic context. At least as I understand it. Even a great improviser with standards like Keith Jarrett with his Trio begins with the melody and structure of the song itself. Or so it seems to me.

NOT arguing the point - just expressing my 2 cent opinion.

Jay

[Dutchbopper]

Dutchbopper you seem to have a difficult time being challenged on anything. You'll drive yourself crazy if you don't lighten up some.

So your first sentence above discredits your whole argument but it's apparently past your comprehension. Do you not have some kind of "pre-arranged" idea in your head of the song in order to "play the melody and the harmony of a song" before you start your improvised noodling and leave everyone wondering what the heck you're now playing?

So now you go into silly semantics. That is not what I mean at all. Not even close. Arguing with the likes of you is a waste of time. So it stops here. Do you even play jazz? Or are you just another bedroom expert.

I will lighten up though. There will be no more threads for me here to particpate in ever. No drama exit for me, I will be posting my stuff here but never ever will I appear in somebody else's thread because the outcome is always the same.

Thanks again Paul for lightening me up. Stay out of my threads though.

DB

[matt.guitarteacher]

[QUOTE=PaulW10;477733]

Being devil's advocate for a second -

I think your post is right on christianm77! And I really appreciate that you replied to Dutchbopper. When I read his post I thought it was the most absurd thing ever posted on this forum (no disrespect intended Dutchbooper)

One of the most absurd ever? That's a little over the top. don't you think? How many "years" are we talking about?

I think that, having posted fewer than 10 times to that point, you should read more and say less.

You're needlessly digging for trouble in this thread, far beyond the actual conversation and topic. Real antagonistic b.s. tone.

Why don't you go to an actual jazz jam and argue semantics with people who are actually playing.

See how it turns out....

Some of us want to actually hear from "players". You can debate whatever without actually being an ass.

[PaulW10]

[QUOTE=matt.guitarteacher;477989]

One of the most absurd ever? That's a little over the top. don't you think? How many "years" are we talking about?

I think that, having posted fewer than 10 times to that point, you should read more and say less.

You're needlessly digging for trouble in this thread, far beyond the actual conversation and topic. Real antagonistic b.s. tone.

Why don't you go to an actual jazz jam and argue semantics with people who are actually playing.

See how it turns out....

Some of us want to actually hear from "players". You can debate whatever without actually being an ass.

Pardon me but have you actually gone back and read the negative tone and comments made by Dutchbopper throughout this thread? That's where antagonism lies. He likes to dish it out to others but give it back to him a little and he quits and takes his ball home.

And you sir no nothing about me and my playing skills. I have 50 years' experience and would not trade my abilities for your skills in a million years. You're the ass.

[PaulW10]

So now you go into silly semantics. That is not what I mean at all. Not even close. Arguing with the likes of you is a waste of time. So it stops here. Do you even play jazz? Or are you just another bedroom expert.

I will lighten up though. There will be no more threads for me here to particpate in ever. No drama exit for me, I will be posting my stuff here but never ever will I appear in somebody else's thread because the outcome is always the same.

Thanks again Paul for lightening me up. Stay out of my threads though.

DB

Yeah Dutchbopper take your ball and go home.

Like I said to pudgy and pasty above I wouldn't trade my skills for yours in a million years either.

[Dutchbopper]

You should be banned from this page forever. You give it a bad name. And as far as your skills are concerned, I am not holding my breath. Give me a clip of your take on Donna Lee or STFU. Ain't gonna happen huh? Mark, get rid of this guy.

DB

[MarkRhodes]

Sometimes things turn unsightly but remain productive---creation can be messy---but this seems to have turned into an insult-fest, which gets us nowhere.

How about we all take a deep breath and decide whether this topic is worth pursuing further here or should be allowed to peter out for the time being. (It will doubtless come up again.)

[artcore]

I love a nice solo arrangement, It takes a lot of skill, in my opinion to pull it off....not a note for note arrangement, unless its a ted Greene piece, then good luck.....his work is beautiful and difficult....who cares what you call it?.....you either like it or not and if your posting here you must like it....I love the harmony, like TG...its what draws me in....mixing in a little single lines is ok...like a little seasoning in your meal.......