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This is where I want to end up, improvising two lines moving in counterpoint, not just stringing together drop 2s and drop 3s and not just harmonizing a line in octaves, 3rds or 10ths or whatever, i.e., not just the same old secondary "harmonic" notes that have the same rhythmic value as the principal note.
Where to start? How do develop skills in this area? Preparation work? It can't be for the faint of heart--even improvising one line at a time is hard enough (!) When I think of two truly independent lines cohabiting the same space, I think they must, in the first instance, have two independent rhythmic values. That, I think, will be where the rubber meets the road. How to play 2 lines simultaneously that have different rhythmic values? Even more than simple conception of motion (contrary/oblique/parallel) and diatonic/chromatic, the technical difficulties will be able to play two lines with independent rhythmic values.
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01-31-2014 01:26 AM
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Listen to Jerry Reed, one of the guitar thinking heroes in guitar heaven. He's got counterpoint both in phrasing and Melodic lines.
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NSJ - Excellent topic. Not as hard as you think. Do you have any classical guitar training? If you play any Bach, you are learning counterpoint. In the jazz world, watch Martin Taylor. In his DVDs he points out that creating counterpoint lines in the interplay between bass, melody, and inner voice harmonies is what he considers more interesting than just playing the progression as chords. And of course, Martin points out that he implies more notes than he plays.
This subject would require a lengthy verbal exposition, but just watching Martin explain and demonstrate his arranging approach would make sense to you much faster. Martin is an excellent teacher with great insights.
Jay
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I think to get here, you're going to have to write some stuff out...studies for tunes, etc..
I'd say keep things simple...I'm more of a notes moving in a chord kinda guy, But I can see how, with a lot of work , developing two actual lines is possible...it's going to be a technical challenge as much as a thought process one, that's why I'm thinking remove the thought for starters (or rather, do it ahead of time) and focus on the technical aspect.
Essentially, you're going to develop your own vocabulary for two intertwined lines, just as you did for one line on top of the harmony...you might split string sets...maybe 5 and 4 for a lower line and 2 and 1 for the upper? 3rd string works as bottom of the high line or top of the low?
You're really making me want to play now
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Never heard of Jerry Reed. Will check him out.
Yes, when I was taking private lessons, I studied some classical guitar--not a lot. To start, I worked with two basic books-one written by the guy who was Charlie Byrd's teacher. And the second one was a series of tunes (err., pieces) put together by Charles Duncan. I will definitely pull these out, again. The Duncan book was essentially pieces for two voices.
I have grown out my nails and starting playing my nylon again. But it's hard to maintain a proper set of nails suitable for both nylon and steel string jazz guitar. The steel strings kind of chew em up. They're probably a tad bit shorter than they need to be for nylon, at this point. I think I will mostly stick with the jazz box.
By the way, I discovered this from Mike's Master Classes and just bought it. Sid Jacobs explaining basic counterpoint for jazz guitar. Th point he makes at the end about piano players politely laughing at a guitarists attempt to pull tougher every possible note in a "chord melody" because they can, without regard for the actual melody itself, kind of hits home. Doh!
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Don't overthink the "nail thing". In cold winters like I experience, you have to trim your nails a bit, because at least mine become more fragile and susceptible to splitting. For classical, the ideal used to be just a rim of nail protruding past the flesh of the finger if you are looking at your palm. The point was to get both flesh and nail on the string to influence tone and articulation. I find the current practice of artificial nails harmful and repellent. No need.
Didn't get a chance to watch the video due to work pressure, but I'll check it out.
Not suggesting it is easy at first, but much of counterpoint as applied to jazz in my opinion is the result of logical musical voice leading. I created a jazz quartet arrangement the other night of a favorite tune, Besame Mucho, using my Sibelius software and playing in the keyboards, bass, and melody line (vocal) with my keyboards. Then, I solo over the arrangement play back with my classical guitar. Came out so well I'm going to use the arrangement as the basis for recording this weekend. I record keyboards as two staffs first, then bass, and lastly the melody. I'm experimenting with recording without a click track, as it is difficult to properly perform ritardi over a click. I used to record bass, strings and other orchestration with my Roland guitar synth, but the latency drives me crazy. Sibelius is much better.
Jay
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Cool clip from Mike's Masterclasses. Did you also check out the classes from Steve Herberman? There seem to be some classes on this topic, and I like his playing and his teaching demeanor. This stuff is still way over my head--I'd be happy being able to grab the drop-2 and -3 voicings!
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Don't know about him. I'll try to check him out in due course.
Originally Posted by dingusmingus
Basically, I'm at the stage where I'm trying to build a solid repertoire of tunes together, and, in addition, I feel like I've put a lot of time in learning the fingerboard, I don't have to think or fumble about when thinking of intervals as they fall across 2 strings, consecutive or otherwise. I know where the diatonic 10ths fall when starting on the fifth string or 6th; I can harmonize a line in diatonic 6ths without going out for the proverbial coffee break.
Music is a humbling thing, it took me a long time to even reach that comfort level with intervals. Mind you, I'm nowhere near expert level or anything like that.
In any event, this seems to be the next logical step, when one is playing finger style, worked a lot on p-i-m-a usage, and has a certain level of familiarity with the fingerboard and practical knowledge of intervals.
Inevitably, the main problem for me is a rhythmic one. if we are honest, that' probably many players' problems.
Regarding chord inversions/drop 2s/drop 3s--I've put my time in on these, of course. For me the sign of meaningful progress was when I could comp a given chord progression in a given area (e.g., diatonic circle of 4ths, IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I) without really moving positions in a radical way, i.e., find those chords more or less where I am at (e.g., 3rd position, 5th position, etc), with minimal movement. Or, alternatively, for example, pick a fret (e.g, 5) and play a dominant 7th chord that is named from each of the 6 notes at that fret without going for the proverbial coffee break (eg., A7, E7, C7, G7, D7, A7).Last edited by NSJ; 01-31-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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I agree with Jeff you got to write stuff.
And you could take baby steps. I wrote this one and theres some simple counterpoint in it. It's done with just using a melody but adding bass notes, it can sound pretty cool. Go to 1:20 of this:
https://app.box.com/shared/q94bu04zmd
For me, I'm just not advanced enough to even want to try to work on two lines at once. I've got to improve on just playing one line at once. There are so many areas for me to work on before I'd want to spend time on improvising counterpoint.
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Great topic.
I took a class on Species Counterpoint back in the day with Armen Donelian at the New School. We had to write out lots of counterpoint studies for each species.
I understood what I was doing in the class but had no idea how to apply it to my playing!
Then I started writing tunes with two lines, just because thats how I was starting to hear things. Some of it was playable on the guitar, but most often not because of the rhythmic independence of each line. I would just record one line in a looper and then play the other line on top of it. Its a great little exercise to do. Stretched my ears and rhythmic feel.
Listen to lots of piano players, if you don't already.
Someone fun to listen to for independent lines in their compositions is Tim Berne. Can be a little heavy on the ears but it will get you hearing some other stuff that could influence your improv.
Some playing suggestions.
Play a note with your 4th finger and hold it. Move a line around it with your other available fingers.
You can work in a scale, arpeggio or neither.
Play freely. Can be chromatic, tonal, or combination of. A big one for me is hearing the weight of dissonances and consonances, the pull of the line. Just dealing with that will open up your ears big time!
Here's another fun thing to do. Start with a major 3rd on the G and B string. An Eb and G up on the 8th fret is a good place to do this. Open up the shape with contrary motion. Ex: Eb goes down to D::G goes up to Ab, D goes down to Db::Ab goes up to A...etc.. Go as far as your fingers can stretch comfortably to play the notes and then switch strings. Move to the 4th string and keep the 2nd string or move to the 1st string.
You can play the exercise as diads or single notes, experiment with rhythmic variety.
Lastly. A GREAT book on this subject for guitar players is The Art of Two Line Improvisation by Jimmy Wyble.
And while you're at it, get the Jimmy Wyble Etudes book. This will have you improvising two lines in no time
Bach Lute Suites are essential.
There's a good book of counterpoint etudes by Ken Hatfield, mostly in the Bach vein but its really good writing and reading material.Last edited by Double V; 01-31-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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Here's a lesson I did for my TF students on harmonizing the A section of Autumn Leaves using contrary motion.
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I've actually worked with the holding one note and constructing a line around it. Thanks for the other suggestions. It seems that Sid Jacobs references Mr. Wyble a lot, from his youtube videos. Originally Posted by Double V
Great topic.
I took a class on Species Counterpoint back in the day with Armen Donelian at the New School. We had to write out lots of counterpoint studies for each species.
I understood what I was doing in the class but had no idea how to apply it to my playing!
Then I started writing tunes with two lines, just because thats how I was starting to hear things. Some of it was playable on the guitar, but most often not because of the rhythmic independence of each line. I would just record one line in a looper and then play the other line on top of it. Its a great little exercise to do. Stretched my ears and rhythmic feel.
Listen to lots of piano players, if you don't already.
Someone fun to listen to for independent lines in their compositions is Tim Berne. Can be a little heavy on the ears but it will get you hearing some other stuff that could influence your improv.
Some playing suggestions.
Play a note with your 4th finger and hold it. Move a line around it with your other available fingers.
You can work in a scale, arpeggio or neither.
Play freely. Can be chromatic, tonal, or combination of. A big one for me is hearing the weight of dissonances and consonances, the pull of the line. Just dealing with that will open up your ears big time!
Here's another fun thing to do. Start with a major 3rd on the G and B string. An Eb and G up on the 8th fret is a good place to do this. Open up the shape with contrary motion. Ex: Eb goes down to D::G goes up to Ab, D goes down to Db::Ab goes up to A...etc.. Go as far as your fingers can stretch comfortably to play the notes and then switch strings. Move to the 4th string and keep the 2nd string or move to the 1st string.
You can play the exercise as diads or single notes, experiment with rhythmic variety.
Lastly. A GREAT book on this subject for guitar players is The Art of Two Line Improvisation by Jimmy Wyble.
And while you're at it, get the Jimmy Wyble Etudes book. This will have you improvising two lines in no time
Bach Lute Suites are essential.
There's a good book of counterpoint etudes by Ken Hatfield, mostly in the Bach vein but its really good writing and reading material.
I agree that baby steps and writing out a lot stuff is needed. At some point, I'll have to probably re-start formal private lessons again. I'd like to make some progress, consolidate, develop, and come to terms with what I've learned so far, first.
I found these notes on Mr. Wyble, as attached.
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Whoa, some golden stuff right there.
Double V, really like that "leaves" too. I think that's a great tune to pick for starting with this stuff...
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And to add on the Wyble. Check out David Oakes tribute page to JW. HUGE Resource. Originally Posted by NSJ
http://www.davidoakesguitar.com/jimmyTribute.php
Thanks, Mr. B! For sure a great tune for counterpoint. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I started watching the complete Sid Jacobs' video and it has a 15 page PDF. Some important points on fundamental things: knowing your diatonic 3rds (actually, 10ths) and being able to invert them, using guide tones as a counter melody.
Love this quote from the video: "I stole that last bit from Bach. That's what's happening from the bottom-7th to 3rds--we just use the guide tones as the counter melody. If you always know the 3rd, you'll be ok. You can start playing. But if you don't know the 3rd and you're trying to carry on this baggage like 'what scale should I play, should I play lydian dominant, should I play altered, should I play the mixolydian?', everyone's gonna be gone by the time you figure it out. "
See, I know how to play my 3rd (10ths) already and that's pretty well ingrained that I rattle those off fairly instantly. I feel better.
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Great Thread! Thanks for posting the video. Such a simple concept. I don't know why I never thought of it. Can't wait to get home to try it.
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I would agree that the Bach Lute Suites are excellent, though many sections have a significant 'degree of difficulty' unless you are adept at classical technique. If I recall, the Bouree of Suite no.1 is the famous syncopated Bouree in Em, the one made famous in the Seventies by Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull. I found myself in Padelson's Music Store in Manhattan near Carnegie Hall one day in my callow youth in the mid-Seventies playing it when in walked an attractive young teenage girl, her thick black hair cascading down onto her fur collared coat. She listened to my playing and when I had finished with the last notes ringing in the air, she remarked that I had played the finally measures "the easy way" using an open string fingering on one measure, rather than the closed voice fingering of Julian Bream. I just smiled back at this forthright and confident young woman, who unbeknownst to me at the time was the brilliant young Sharon Isbin.
NSJ - One other bit of advice I would offer to any aspiring musician - get an inexpensive version of Sibelius or Finale. Working with notation software will be a great vehicle to improve musicianship.
Jay
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Jay, I already have Finale Songwriter. I just use it to create etudes or simple lead sheets. As for Isbin, Nice story. I had the pleasure of doing some pro bono work for Isbin's esteemed teacher. a few years ago When he came to Chicago (he usually comes here regularly to give master classes and concerts at Pick Steiger Hall in Evanston, as the woman who heads the guitar department at Northwestern was a former student of his as well), I got to meet him, drive him around one night to my teacher's house, and have dinner with them. What an honor! He's known my teacher for about 50 years now. What a fantastic human being! Originally Posted by targuit
I would agree that the Bach Lute Suites are excellent, though many sections have a significant 'degree of difficulty' unless you are adept at classical technique. If I recall, the Bouree of Suite no.1 is the famous syncopated Bouree in Em, the one made famous in the Seventies by Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull. I found myself in Padelson's Music Store in Manhattan near Carnegie Hall one day in my callow youth in the mid-Seventies playing it when in walked an attractive young teenage girl, her thick black hair cascading down onto her fur collared coat. She listened to my playing and when I had finished with the last notes ringing in the air, she remarked that I had played the finally measures "the easy way" using an open string fingering on one measure, rather than the closed voice fingering of Julian Bream. I just smiled back at this forthright and confident young woman, who unbeknownst to me at the time was the brilliant young Sharon Isbin.
NSJ - One other bit of advice I would offer to any aspiring musician - get an inexpensive version of Sibelius or Finale. Working with notation software will be a great vehicle to improve musicianship.
Jay
As for this material, I'm not going to pretend to be a classical player or some sort of expert on counterpoint (that would take years!) but the very basic materials for creating interesting counter melodies (intervals, guide tones), I've already internalized to a certain extent and worked with. My main interest is solo guitar now. I tend to view the fingerboard as series and collections of intervals. If you invert a diatonic Major 10th, the inverted interval forms a m6; if you invert a diatonic minor 10, it forms a M6. Major and minor guide tones going from 7th to 3rd form a P4; major and minor guide tones going from the 3rd to the 7th form a P5. Guide tones for dominant chords always form a tritone.
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Nice story regarding Ms. Isbin's former teacher. Thanks to her innate talent and drive, she had a number of renowned teachers along the way from her first lessons in Italy as a young girl.
One other suggestion I would proffer - my 2 cents is all. While delving into music theory is informative and rewarding, don't get too hung up on it. My maxim remains - theory is the explanation of why what sounds good to your ear works. But theory did not write Bach's Chaconne. I am schooled in theory, but when I'm playing it never crosses my mind in the moment. Trust your ears.
JAY
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I second the Bach Lute Suites as absolutely positively neccesary listening/reading/practicing. Chantrelle Press has a beautiful edition by Josef Eotvos...one page is worth a thousand hours. Give them a shot you wont be disappointed.
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I have several CDs of them but as far as playing them that's way way above my pay grade. It would be the height of pretentiousness for me to try to play that. think I will stick to my Duncan book of beginner to intermediate pieces with 2 voices. I will make sure to listen to the Lute suites very closely though. The version I really like is by Paul Galbraith. Originally Posted by eddy b.
I am going to focus on what I have already internalized over several years-intervals and guide tones and diatonic-chromatic enclosures of the same. I am already imagining writing out lines just using 10ths, the inversion of 10ths, guide tones and chromatic-diatonic enclosures from above -below of the same.
The Jimmy Wyble tribute site looks amazing.
PS I now have found a musical term to replace the horrible word only guitarists seem to know- goodbye "chord - melody", hello contrapuntal music.
Last edited by NSJ; 01-31-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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One thing I've been mulling over and practicing now, as posited by the Jacobs video: he remarked how Joe Diorio once asked Wes about his ii-V-I line, and Wes said something like, "man don't ask me about that; it's just a sound". Even if he didn't know the formal academic nomenclature, the sound he always nailed were the guide tones. the great ones know what to listen for, and what they listened for and nailed were the guide tones.
Furthermore, there are no RULES for creating great melodies (otherwise, everyone would follow them and create great melodies). the melody can be played freely to taste, by ear, etc.
But there are some basic rules for creating melody in which you can hear the harmony, and those rules center around the guide tones. But creating a counter-melody using the guide tones (3rds and 7ths, using approach tones which allow the rhythmic variety that differentiates counter point from harmonization 1) half step BELOW the 3rd; (2) scale step ABOVE the 3rd; (3) both of the above), you create a counter-melody that allows you to hear the changes.
So, I'm devising a way to create two melodies--the one on top is played freely; the one below follows the rules spelled out above: a continuous line built on guide tones that is embellished by chromatic and/or diatonic approach tones below and/or above. Two lines: the one in the bass is built on guide tones and spells out the changes. the one on top is not encumbered by the changes and is played without rules except those dictated by the ear.
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Also of note--compare and contrast this usage of Guide tones with those used by Tim Lerch in his comping video. There, he Envisioned guide tones as P4 or tritone double stops played in a more or less harmonization role as whole notes or half notes with the added melody line on top. The melody line usually was conceived as quarter notes and the melody notes were local to each given cord (#5 to P5 to #11 of the V chord, going to the 9th of the to ii chord, etc), as opposed to diatonic to the overall key signature.
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This is an excellent thread. I checked out the Sid Jacobs counterpoint masterclass sample and found the playing absolutely beautiful. I want to do that! Needless to say, I purchased both the counterpoint and Bill Evans classes. Some time ago, I purchased 4 Jimmy Wyble books and have had them on my shelf for a proper time to dig in. These are:
These are Mel Bay publications with CD:
Concepts For The Classical And Jazz Guitar
The Art Of Two-Line Improvisation (the David Oakes corrected edition)
Jimmy Wyble's Solo Collection
Picked this up for a dollar at a used book store some years ago:
Jimmy Wyble's Classical/Country
I have no idea which of the above books are still in print, but I think they constitute the Jimmy Wyble collection, aside from David Oakes' site.
The styles represented by all of these are truly interesting to listen to, and (I would think) to play. I also have the Bach Lute Suites for guitar.
Thanks,
Tony
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I created a Finale and PDF file of 16 measures of guide tones as the bottom line, in the keys of C, F, and Bb. (to start). So, 48 measures all told. The first 8 measures of each 16 measure exercise are in the Tim Lerch style (harmonized double stops ) and the 2nd 8 measures are in the Sid Jacobs style (lines where in the 3rd is approached from a half step below and a scale step above).
This comprises the bottom line. Fixed as a given.
So, given that, I take each little segment of the bottom line (i.e. one measure at a time) and stay there for a good long while. My goal is to see what melody notes I can play/reach/attempt as the top line while playing the bottom line. It's sort of an exercise in discovery: What top notes are reachable, how do they relate to the key signature (diatonic/chord tone/ chromatic, etc), all the while maintaining the bottom line.
The guide tones relate to the diatonic circle in 4ths chord progression (I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I). 8 mesures, 8 chords. In C: CM7-FM7-Bm7b5-Em7-Dm7-G7-CM7.
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