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I think you're missing the vi chord.
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02-02-2014 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by edh
Measure 5, Am7, Guide tones are C and G (m3 and m7 intervals). Does anyone know how to set Finale to show 4 measures per line as a default?
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Not a default, but serves the same purpose.
Simply save a blank doc formatted in the way you would like your default doc to be.
Instead of a new doc, just open this whenever appropriate to the task at hand,
changing the name and whatever else need changing. Give it an obvious easy to find name.
Measures per system are adjusted under Utilities menu/ Fit Measures.
Choose 4 measures for all measures.
Systems per page are adjusted under Page layout tool.
Under page layout menu choose "Space Systems Evenly"
Choose number of systems per page on how many pages.
I attached a 32 4x8 sample PDF.
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Thanks, Bako! That was painless. Much easier to read. I decided to add chord symbols as well. Originally Posted by bako
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Crap, I would look at this while I'm trying to get a baby to sleep and not earlier when I actually had a half hour with a guitar on my lap
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I watched the YT sample posted earlier in this thread and was smitten by Sid Jacobs' playing. But I don't get how the inversions of the root and thirds (tenths) work in his demonstration in ATTYA...he went through it too darn fast for me! Originally Posted by NSJ
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For sure nothing will train you to play multiple voices better than classical guitar music and for traditional counterpoint, Bach was the apex. But I wouldn't try to adhere too strictly to the rules of counterpoint, this is jazz you are talking about playing after all, so some dissonance and atonality and other crazy shit would actually make it sound better than proper note resolutions and avoiding parallel 4ths and 5ths would, imo.
I do a lot of "chord melody" improvisation (and I don't think it's a dirty word). But actually improvising two distinct melodic lines at one time is incredibly difficult for guitar (not as bad for a pianist). What Sid is essentially doing is just arpeggiating the chord while playing the melody, and this is exactly how most classical guitar pieces work, Bach being one of the exceptions. I have come across similar counterpoint in modern composed classical guitar music but in general it's not that common (at least in the repertoire I've studied).
I think also it's somewhat difficult to create counterpoint, that doesn't sound like traditional counterpoint. I don't find it that attractive to have a jazz pianist or guitarist toss in the middle of their solo something that sounds like Bach. It becomes a novelty, and always seems out of place. There's nothing wrong with giving a nod to a great composer like Bach, but one shouldn't over do it I think. My 2 cents.
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Very nice points. I agree with this. I was just expressing the idea of breaking of the monotony of harmonizing every damn top note with some sort of drop 2 or 3 or triad or inversion of the same. As Sid says in his video, "that's like putting a lead boot on the melody note". For me, the most important consideration in music is feel. That just sounds clunky and clumsy. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
For sure nothing will train you to play multiple voices better than classical guitar music and for traditional counterpoint, Bach was the apex. But I wouldn't try to adhere too strictly to the rules of counterpoint, this is jazz you are talking about playing after all, so some dissonance and atonality and other crazy shit would actually make it sound better than proper note resolutions and avoiding parallel 4ths and 5ths would, imo.
I do a lot of "chord melody" improvisation (and I don't think it's a dirty word). But actually improvising two distinct melodic lines at one time is incredibly difficult for guitar (not as bad for a pianist). What Sid is essentially doing is just arpeggiating the chord while playing the melody, and this is exactly how most classical guitar pieces work, Bach being one of the exceptions. I have come across similar counterpoint in modern composed classical guitar music but in general it's not that common (at least in the repertoire I've studied).
I think also it's somewhat difficult to create counterpoint, that doesn't sound like traditional counterpoint. I don't find it that attractive to have a jazz pianist or guitarist toss in the middle of their solo something that sounds like Bach. It becomes a novelty, and always seems out of place. There's nothing wrong with giving a nod to a great composer like Bach, but one shouldn't over do it I think. My 2 cents.
My thinking is not to fully learn the rules of counterpoint or become a classical composer. Like I said, that's way above my pay grade. But to be simply able to accompany a line with something else that sounds like a line that also sounds melodic to some degree. Of course, it's nearly impossible to play two lines on guitar in the same octave like a piano player can play it. And I'm intrigued by the idea of playing "mistakes" that are no doubt wrong according to theory but sound good. Not sure where that falls on the contrapuntal spectrum. (Even regarding pianists: Hal Galper said a few years ago, he finally sat down and did a through study of Bill Evans' music--studying everything about it, talking to anyone who may have known Bill, even people Evans got high with. What did he learn about his own playing? That Bill couldn't teach him anything about lines, swing, or feel. But it was in his accompaniment that Bill was revolutionary as a pianist in jazz--the use of counterpoint instead of using stacked thirds and 4ths like everyone else. Now, Galper said to fully learn species counterpoint would be a 7 year process of study or so. That ain't happening for him.
I've gotten quite a bit from Jacobs' idea of it not being chord-melody, but MELODY-chord, giving dimensionality to the music. In that regard, Another classical guitar idea that we can put to use is dynamics in articulation, simply making the top note more louder and with a more pronounced presence that the bottom note.
Yeah, the point is not to become a counterpoint specialist. But simply to to not "put a lead boot on each melody note".
Last edited by NSJ; 02-04-2014 at 06:43 AM.
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Rather than load the forum's bandwidth with a lot of videos, I thought I would offer some YouTube suggestions for you folks to check out.
1. Jimmy Wyble-There are a number of videos of Jimmy playing in a tea room including his interpretation of In A Sentimental Mood that will give you a glimpse into how he integrated his concepts and exercises into standard tunes. When you search "Jimmy Wyble" on YouTube you'll also get links to the JW Memorial concert with Sid Jacobs and others playing some of Jimmy's etudes. The customer chatter is annoying but it's worth it to hear Wyble play.
2. Steve Herberman uploaded his lessons with Ted Greene on YouTube with the title Ted Greene Baroque Improv. There are four videos.
3. There is a video of Pasquale Grasso playing Tea for Two in which he plays some counterpoint ideas in his intro.
4. Using "jazz guitar counterpoint" as a search term yields mixed results some of which are very good.
Regards,
Jerome
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Jerome,
the Steve Herberman master class on Baroque two-line ii-V cadences using contrary motion and secondary dominants and cycled patterns looks very cool. The exhaustive PDF of exercises is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks for pointing him out. I googled him and he posted here briefly in 2008, mainly on the Ted Greene stuff.
Thanks again!
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So, the Herberman Baroque materials are fantastic. Tons of great etudes and exercises.
I will not post his work here, as people should buy it from Mike's Master Classes.
I really love his first exercise of two note lines. Before I practiced it, I tried to to understand it. So, it is in a particular diatonic key, but allow me to describe it in a way that can work for ANY key, using secondary dominants and V-I cadences.
*The diatonic chords are either major or minor (obviously the vii chord is diminished). The two notes that represent these 8 chords (7 chords in the key, plus ev8) are harmonized in the form 3-1 (e.g., CMajor would be harmonized by a two notes E-C, i.e., an interval of a minor 6th: Dminor would be harmonized by F-D, i.e., a major 6th). Essentially, the crux of the exercise is that you are harmonizing the major scale in diatonic 6ths. By itself, meh.
*But before each chord in the sequence, precede it by its V7 chord, or its secondary dominant (e.g., G7-C, A7-Dm, et al). Any dominant 7 chord will in the form V7, using only their guide tones. And, thus, all dominant chords will be represented by a tritone interval, going from the 7 to 3 of each chord (e.g., G7= F and B).
So, if you put these two ideas together (diatonic 6ths interspersed by tritones), you get a two note line demonstrating contrary motion (ascending upper line, descending bass). Fantastic. If you think about it, you can do a ton of musical stuff in terms of improv and language from this one simple exercise.Last edited by NSJ; 02-04-2014 at 09:08 PM.
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So, I went a head and spent a couple of hours today in the afternoon and wrote out a basic tune using 2 lines. t's attached as a PDF. I thought I harmonized the notes correctly, but if you guys see any errors, please let me know. It's in AABA form, so there's only the A section and B section (8 measures of each). I kept the A section more or less diatonic, the chromatic/non-diatonic notes are due to some standard secondary dominant subs (V7 subs) and one combination tritone sub of the V7 sub. The B section is just a seres of dominants, harmonically cycling up in 4ths a la George Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm". Naturally, would not call this counterpoint, even if it is two lines moving obliquely/in parallel/ in contrary motion, given that both lines possess the same rhythmic values. Finale won't let you write separate lines with distinct rhythmic values unless you split them up in layers. I.e., the basic lead sheet format has one rhythmic value.
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You keep posting cool shit when I have a baby sleeping on me
I think this is the kind of groundwork you're going to have to do though...even without getting to try it out right now, I feel pretty strongly you're on the right path.
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The idea of creating one melody against another melody made me go back to my introductory notes from Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony", the premise of what, for example, Jacobs discusses about thirds/10ths resonates with Ligon's thoughts about creating a counter melody against the bass player that uses the 3rds as TARGET notes as well. Here are my notes to Chapter 2 and 3 of Ligon's book.
Ligon: Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony Notes
Ii. Linear Harmony
Jazz improvisation often means creating counterpoint against a given harmonic progression. Good counter point in that regard is a line that sounds good (contains well-chosen notes) against a given bass line. Assume the bass plays a line predicated by the root progression. Narrow the note choices for the counter line (eliminate the root, non-diatonic notes) to create a counter melody against the bass. It is best to use diatonic 3rds as target notes in a ii-V-I, because they fundamental major/minor quality of the chord. What about the 7ths? They are restless and want to resolve downward. The tension of the line is generated and resolved by the 7th resolving downward to form the 3rd of the next chord. If the 7th is delayed until the next measure (next chord), it creates a suspension. Good lines observe voice leading rules: 7ths to 3rds, 3rds to 7ths, 9ths to 5ths. 3rds are more consonant than 7ths, which are heard later and tend to resolve over the bar line. The fundamental pattern is this: consonance-dissonance-resolution. The 3rds need to be placed in rhythmically significant places. But what is that?
Devices to utilize: (1) octave displacement after the initial target note (the 3rd); (2) ASC rootless arp (3579) on the V chord resolving to the 5th of the tonic; (3) alter the harmonic rhythm (e.g., change from half notes to whole notes); (4) ASC arp of the ii chord (135) with the added restless tone (7), resolving to the 3 of the V7 chord. After resolving to the 3 of the V7 chord, you can arpeggiate the V7 chord (3579), which resolves to the 3 of the I chord; (5) DESC arp of the ii chord (5-3-1), adding the restless 7 below the root, which resolves to the 3 of the V chord. You can arpeggiate up from the 3rd of the V chord (3579), resolve to the 5th of the I chord.
III. Embellishing Devices
- Simple—no elaboration except rhythmic displacement
- Passing tones-chromatic and non-diatonic steps between essential notes. Any diatonic note can have a chromatic leading tone, and chromatic altered tones tend to continue in the direction in which they have been altered.
- Neighbor tones: tones below and above the essential tones, usually scale tone above and chromatic tone below.
- Arpeggiated tones: arpeggiated notes from the chords can, for example replace scale step from above NTs from #3. Common device: 5th of the ii chord played in a lower octave.
- Extensions: you can also extend the arp to the 9th and possibly the 11th before descending down the 3rd of the V7 chord.
- Chromatic approaches—diatonic note + chromatically altered note (from above and/or below) leading to an essential note (target note), which often occurs on the strong beat of the measure (from above: G-Gb-F; from below: D#-E-F). The 3rd of the V chord is often approached from below with a diatonic tone-chromatic passing tone—target note OR chromatically both from above and below; the 3rd of the I—chromatic passing tone.
- Octave displacement: One or more notes placed in another octave. When do leaps generally occur? usually after the guide tone note, from downbeat to upbeat, never over the bar line, rarely from weak to strong beat. Common leaps: (a) After arriving at target (3rd): up to the 9th/b9, whereupon the line tends to descend; (b) 3rd down to the 5th (i.e., down a 6th), whereupon it may ascend; (c) 3rd up to the root, which tends to end the motion of the line.
- Encircling tones: both neighbor tones before essential tones.
- C.E.S.H. (Chromatic elaboration of static harmony)—in a ii-V, descending chromatic movement from R of ii chord to the 3rd of the V chord. Other notes (static harmony) can be played in between chromatic descending notes, implying compound melodies.
- Anticipation of the nest chord, creating a dissonance which is resolved when the harmony catches up with the melody.
- Delayed Resolution: suspension of one chord to the next.
- Sawtooth: consistent up and down movement, often using a pivot note. (G-D-F-D-E).
- Iteration: repeated notes as 8th note motion where the line usually contains only quarter notes.
- Rhythmic devices: displacement; augmentation; diminution; anticipation.
- Adding notes before, within, or after outline/motive.
- Borrowed Chords and Notes. E.g., chords altered from parallel minor key, and these notes from the modal interchange are imposed upon the dominant.
- Change of Direction.
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For the study of counterpoint, go back to Bach.
Listen to Keith Jarrett solo jazz piano - It's full of counterpoint. Listen to KJ Bach solo piano as well.
Study at a keyboard...since you've mastered the fretboard applying what you learn at the keyboard should be a cinch for you to apply insights gained to the guitar.
As a well known jazz horn player once asked Miles', "how'd you discover that? Miles replied, study piano MF!"
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For being raised by Dentist father and middle class, Miles sure had a foul mouth.
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NSJ - Would you prefer honesty or reassuring platitudes? I'm going to bet on sympathetic but honest appraisal.
Your "exercise" sounds like crap. I just played through it as written. I suspect this lack of sense and quality is due to one thing. You are trying to write a piece of music as if you were following the directions to assemble a bicycle from scratch and you don't know what a "bicycle" looks like and the directions are written in Sanskrit.
Theory does NOT write music. People with ears do. Your "melody" and simple two-part "harmony" lines don't make sense, nor do they sound good as written. Your basic progression makes some sense, but the "melody and harmony" don't. I do not understand if the chord changes as written above the staff are supposed to indicate an "underlying" rhythm with the actual two voice notes on staff being your melody or what, but it does not make sense. Two notes can imply a chord in terms of harmony in context, but the "melody and counterpoint" as you wrote them do not gibe.
Your key signature as written is F major or D minor. In the fifth measure you write Gm7 as the chord but actually write a B natural quarter note paired with a G. That would imply G major or perhaps G7 but not Gm7. If you were using the B natural as a passing tone, it might make some sense but does not in this context. There were several examples of this. And if there is a 'melody' to sing in there, I cannot find it.
You cannot write a decent piece of music as if you were following the directions in a cookbook recipe. Try this instead. Sit at a piano and compose a simple melody that you can sing in the key you have chosen. Then, determine the appropriate bass line that will complement that melody. In this case write the bass initially as the roots of the chord progression that you wish to imply. Or alternatively, start with a relatively simple chord progression, and then sing a melody that is musical over it and write it down on the sheet music. Or write out two staffs - the top staff just for a single note melody, and the bottom staff as your written out chords. Initially keep the chords as simply three notes including your root, third (major or minor quality), and the seventh. You can add suspensions and extensions such as ninths later. Start by writing the chords on the lower staff as whole or half notes. Write a melody that you can sing over a recording of your chords. You can make the melody interesting rhythmically, but keep the chordal harmony simple at first. Once your melody makes sense against your chords, you add colors with extensions, suspensions, etc. Your ear will tell you that a B natural and a G note do not a Gm7 make. Trust your ears.
This is why I would suggest that any serious music student get an inexpensive copy of Sibelius or other notation software. When you play back what you have written, you will HEAR the discrepancies. And the software just plays what you wrote impersonally.
I hope you understand the point of my critique. In fact, I am going to try and quickly enter a few measures of your exercise and play it back.
I just did that, writing in your music as written over the chords you indicate. Not a pretty thing. Please understand my intention is not to hurt your feelings but to help you get on the right track. Counterpoint is the interplay of independent lines that together create the tensions and resolutions that make music interesting. It would be far more effective for you to record a simple block chord progression in half and whole notes. Then play a single note "melody" that you can sing over it. And make sure it sounds right to your ear. You will progress in leaps and bounds. Stop annotating theoretical texts. At this point you are wasting your time big time.Last edited by targuit; 02-12-2014 at 05:23 AM.
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I was reflecting on what is part of the problem here. First, have you ever played any of the progressive Sor studies for classical guitar? His simplest studies would be a good start for you to learn the pattern recognition that will help you understand written notation for guitar (and other instruments as well) and make sense of the melodies you hear. A progressive study of classical guitar with your focus on theory would work wonders. To play Bach level counterpoint is quite ambitious if you lack training unless you have a great ear. But it is a worthy goal towards which to aspire.
Second, an excellent musician on Youtube, Rob Bourassa, a longtime music performer, multi-instrumentalist, and guitar teacher used to rail about a pet peeve of his. That many decent guitarists, even some well known "names", could not play a spontaneous 'chord-melody' version of children's songs like twinkle twinkle little star when asked. In other words they didn't have the intuitive understanding to play what they should hear in their head spontaneously. He is correct. Here is an idea - pick a childhood song like those that are not already found in notation somewhere and try and reproduce that. Pick a song or lullaby that is well known and we can create the sheet music together, especially if you explain how you linked the sheet music you wrote here to the forum.
JayLast edited by targuit; 02-12-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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Jay,
thanks for the critique. Yeah. Guilty as charged. I wrote that in the course of 20 minutes at a cafe using the paint-by-numbers approach on paper (the aforementioned mistakes had all been previously corrected and it was even revised a bit to get the "paint-by-numbers" effect out of there). It was actually a good learning experience. That is not how I would normally try to write a song. I would try to sing it and have the chords fit the melody after the fact. That's why I referenced the Ligon material, i.e, creating a counter melody against the bass line. That approach reflects what you have written much more so. obviously.
Your piano approach makes much more sense. I guess part of the goal of writing it was more to examine further the technical possibilities of what's playable and not playable on the fingerboard. Thanks again.Last edited by NSJ; 02-12-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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NSJ - Have you ever studied classical guitar? I ask because those Sor studies would give you a progressive sense of "what you play looks like" as notation. Enhanced pattern recognition of notation would make your theoretical studies concrete.
Just curious. What key did you intend for that exercise. F or Dm? If I suggest a chord progression like F - C7 / Dm7 - Am7 / Bbmaj7 - Fmaj7 / Gm7 - A7 / Dm7 , can you instantly visualize the notation in your mind and 'hear the changes'? Can you just sit down with sheet music and pencil and write in those chords on a staff as notation? Try writing a melody you can sing over those chords, giving each chord a half note value, the last Dm7 a whole note.
Can you play spontaneous variations in various keys of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star?I'm not jesting here. After I wrote the original post, I did just that, as well as notating a few in the key of G. Which led me to write an original song inspired by the process.
I'm reasonably sure you do not play piano. It is a great tool for composition that should not be neglected, even by jazz guitarists. You cannot build a house without the proper tools.
Jay
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I saw pianist Fred Hersch at a local club last year improvising some amazing counterpoint solos on original compositions of trumpeter John McNeil that he was sight reading. I don't have time to search out the best example.
Here's 2 clips that include some counterpoint style playing early on in the solos.
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One doesn't need to be technically proficient with a piano to compose at the piano, or even to play piano. Learning left hand voicings is quick and easy. Create your own melodies while comping for yourself. The entire orchestra is right before you and EZ to see.
Quality Digital pianos are cheaper than cheap archtops. There's no reason for any serious musician not to own a keyboard, in my opinion. Dexter, Miles, Dizzy, and many others composed at the piano, and were excellent piano players. I had the privilege of having an impromtu lesson with Dizzy in Seattle in '93. You'd have thought piano was his main instrument. Check out Arturo Sandoval...He's a demon at the keyboard.
Here's an '04 Blue Note set w/ Arturo and his band:
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 02-12-2014 at 08:32 PM.
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yah, I have a yamaha digital piano with weighted keys. I was trying to play a bit earlier before I broke my wrist. Then the wheels came off that project. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
In all honesty, this has been a great endeavor for me, As I said, trying to play proper counterpoint is so far above my pay grade, I'll be light years away (note Hal Galper quote in prior post). That's not really my goal. My goal is to begin to seriously start to play the guitar in a contrapuntal way that is less reliant on the stuff I already know, the stock chord voicings (drop 2s, drop 3s, drop 2 and 3s, etc). I've learned some vital things through research.
Not the least of which---- I have discovered some of the most profound, most beautiful music I have ever heard in my life. Bach's cantatas. OMFG! How I did not know about these before, shame on me.
Without doubt the best way to get this is to take proper lessons again. My teacher was the first one to start classical guitar programs (write the curriculum get them accredited and certified) at Chicago based used universities. Before him, nothing existed at all for guitarists around here. Hell, I just found out he was the one who convinced Jimmy Wyble to take up classical guitar many many decades ago. He said that Mr. Wyble was truly a "gentle soul".
Before I can do that, though, I have some personal work to do in terms of health/fitness/life issues, as well as general guitar improvement in other fundamental areas.
This experience has been fantastic, I must say. Even writing out crap has taught me something. We can learn from anything.
I think that playing guitar and playing piano are so different in important ways: on the piano, it's all laid out for you, ready for you to grab. The guitar? It's a confounding secret that is not readily transparent in showing you it's whys and wherefores. (n.b., the 5 middle Cs).
I now tend to view the fretboard as series of intervals, and I'm trying to think about music in terms of intervals. Just practicing some stuff from this thread, I've improved my 3rds/10ths and 6ths/13ths recognition not just in theory (that was always good) but in actual practice. It really has to be INSTANT and without thinking, second nature. Not there yet, but it's getting better. Not just these, but how they relate to tritones, guide tone usage, approaching notes chromatically and/or diatonically from above or below.
All that stuff can only help.
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I've been revisiting my notes on another pianistic concept, which I got from various sources, including some excellent basic lessons I read from Matt W's website. Now I think of them less of single note solutions but as chords possibly moving contrapuntally. Again the goal is to break away from stock drop 2s and drop 3a. Here's my notes --
Triad pairs
Triad Pairs on M7 chord: Either minor chords associated with 2nd and 3rd degree OR major triads associated with 4th degree; including triads in Root position and 2 inversions (M. Warnock)
Triad Pairs on Unaltered Dom7: where you don't want to use an arpeggio or mixo mode. Triad Pair ONE: use R and b7 of unaltered dom7 (e.g., on C7, play C and Bb triad)--the Bb gives you the b7, 9th and 11th.--playing 6 of the 7 of mixo mode. TRIAD Pair TWO: minor triads built from the 5th and 6th of the underlying Dom7 chord (On a C7, Gm and Am).
Triad pairs over Diminished Chord: thinks of triads a half step below each note of the diminished chord (Bdim= BDFAb; so major and minor triads can be made from Bb, Db, E, and G). If the B dim triad is functioning as a G7b9, the most effective triads are based on the root and tritone, in this case, G and Db triads. Two triads a tritone apart can be very effective, in this regard.
When you see an ALT chord, a Dom7 bebop scale up a minor third from that ALT chord gets you dome nice sounds, when played on the downbeat (5, b7, #9, b9).
Triad Pairs of m7 chord: major triad over b3 and 4 of the chord OR minor triads over R and 2nd of chord.
Triad pairs of m7b5-- major triads on b5 and b6 of the scale; minor triads on b3 and 4 of the scale.
Triad pairs: Alt chords: major triads b5 and #5 of the scale; minor triads b9 and #9 of the scale.
Triad pairs: 7b9/7#9---5 and 6 dim chords of the scale; or minor triads
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NSJ-
I really enjoyed reading this thread!
Wondering how the journey has been over the last year or so since you last posted?
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