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BTW, Mr. B, nice version of 'All Of Me'.
After I just said that I rarely play a tune the same way twice, I am working out a more detailed solo arrangement of that song on my Sibelius software for the purpose of refining my arrangement. But I'm sure when I record it as I do the video, I will stray from the notation anyway. Just the way it is.
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05-22-2013 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Haha...I was going to post the same thing. In fact I think I've read these same long winded stories in some other threads here. I haven't played through this arrangement, but I've looked at it, and after having gone through "The Formula"...everything falls in line as to how he comes up with his versions of tunes. The quality of the chord almost doesn't matter as much as the "steering mechanism" as he likes to say.
The one benefit of learning this stuff verbatim is getting the mechanical every note harmonized thing smooth....if that's what what you want, but I'm pretty sure he even says in that video to take out some chords or change voicings if it starts to get too much.
I like The Formula a lot, mainly because he uses the same 5 or 6 basic harmonic devices over and over, but demonstrates how far you can take it with some work and thinking.....highly recommend for anyone wanting some new ways to look at a tune.Last edited by djangoles; 05-22-2013 at 07:38 AM.
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No. I was answering some things you said. I don't intend to "sell you on Conti", but rather clear up somethings that I get the impression are not clear. I don't get any renumeration from anything I say about Cont's materials. I do find all this concern about "No Scales,No Modes" rather curious. My impression of reading about the players people consider the greats, not the guys who came later, but those who came up earlier, is that their focus was not on modes and that sort of thing. Theory comes along after the fact to describe what has been done. Conti seems to be one who has said to me and on his DVDs that he did not study modes and the sorts of theoretical things that people often talk about in forums. When I played in the road band, I met a lot of very good working musicians. They swapped licks and ideas, but the conversations were decidedly different than the theoretical conversations in forums today. I really do think there is a sort of idolized history going on about what some of these working musicians did with their time and what their woodshedding actually consisted of. In my own view, they probably did practice scales and licks, phrases, etc. and experimented with the sounds they could come up wth, without necessarily thinking consciously about modes and theory behind it all to the extent that people in today's forums want to believe. They put in the hours, but not necessarily doing what people now claim they did. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If you are interested in Conti's take on "no scales and modes" is, I can certainly call his organization and ask to talk to him. I am sure he will be quite straightforward.
Maybe at this point, enough said if it is said that I am trying to sell you on Conti. Respect for different aproaches to learning and playing might be the better route. This, and The Formula thread are about Conti's materials, so the discussion will necessarily be about Conti. If that is selling, so be it. There are other threads one can spend their time in.
TonyLast edited by tbeltrans; 05-22-2013 at 07:55 AM.
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Well it sounds as if targuit is saying the same thing that I was getting at, and that seems much more in line with what at least some of "the greats" have said,especially guys like Joe Pass and Conti. As to what djangoles said about The Formula, that is how Conti seems to approach playing lead lines too. I can say from personal experience that when playing in a band situation, the more one can do with less, the smoother the whole thing goes.
As for the "long winded" posts, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about Conti's teaching philosophy, but a lot of misinformed opinions on it. I am trying to explain Conti's approach. If I could do it once and that gets read, fine. But it does seem these things continue to come up again and again, making it seem that people don't go back and read the earlier posts. I think Conti figured that putting a video sample up in which he talks about his approach to learning and then teaches an arrangement, maybe people would get a better idea. I am guessing here since I was not involved in putting up that video, but the timing and subsequent discussion seem to indicate that. But when somebody only watches a small bit of it and then forms an opinion, that purpose was not fulfilled. Hence, my explanations. I am not selling anything. I work as a Principal Software Engineer for a major corporation and play guitar as an avocation. I live well below my income and don't need a second job. I have benefitted from Conti's materials and therefore try to address the various miscoonceptions that seem to pop up on the net. Again, this is a Conti thread, as is the one on The Formula. If a person does not care for Conti or his method or whatever the problem may be, there are many other threads in this forum.
I wrote a paper on the CAGED system back around 1995 between ungrad and grad school when I had some down time and that paper is still floating around many sites on the net, including LickByNeck, among others. I was really into the theory aspect back then. A lot of people have read and commented positively on that paper. Some said my intro was long winded, so maybe that is just my style of writing. Targuit writes some wordy posts that I think are interesting and informative. Djangoles seemed to capture a sense of The Formula in just a few sentences. Different writing styles.
TonyLast edited by tbeltrans; 05-22-2013 at 08:03 AM.
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I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything about Conti's approach...all I said was that there are folks out there who take little bits--sound bytes, if you will, and run with them, not understanding what he's really getting at.
And Tony, my apologies about the "sell" comment-- it was a smart aleck quip, not an accusation that you work for Conti...I have no reason to believe that...
But if you look at what I've actually posted in this thread, I really don't think any of it disagrees with Conti.
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Yeah, I am verbose! Tbeltrans - could you or someone who has worked with the Conti Formula video put into a paragraph just what 'devices' he uses beyond simply harmonizing the melody? I mean, what else is there? I have several little constructs that I have developed over many years of playing that help with improvisation and such, but in the end fluency in playing is the result of woodshedding and experience playing, informed by intelligent study of theory and simply listening.
Don't get me wrong, I studied classical guitar as my foundation for four or five years, followed by playing in bands in high school, college, and continuing my classical playing and jazz for decades. To this day I usually play on average about two hours a night, using a variety of resources - CDs, YTube, Fakebook, other compilations... . I also play keyboards and use Sibelius nightly. But I don't think I would play any better studying modes and various scales. When you look at it, the counter argument would seem to be "Well, you don't know if you are playing a Dorian or Locrian scale over that chord structure!" My response would be "Who cares? If the notes sound right to me, that's what I'm playing. I play what I hear, and I have no difficulty playing any of the twelve tones anywhere on the fretboard. " And I do know scales and modes, but I would rather be playing Misty or The Shadow of Your Smile. I suspect that is what Conti would say as well.
The problem with teaching is that a teacher can open a student's eyes to possibilities and even tear down cognitive barriers, but he cannot give the student the actual time on the instrument and experience that are necessary. I think it's like building a guitar. Conti gives the students a plan and advice, but it is up to the students to make it a reality.
I don't think anyone is knocking Conti's approach, though I do think he gets a bit verbose at times - like me. Check out excerpts of Martin Taylor's instructional videos for the contrast and also for some very sound advice, imo. One could learn a lot from his materials, too.
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@tbeltrans
Whether you work for Conti or not....it comes across as sounding like it. Sorry, but anytime someone posts 5 or 6 long paragraphs on how he teaches, a bell goes off with me.
I've been on this board for 5 years and I definitely remember this happening a few years ago. It was someone else posting, but pretty much the same type of situation where somebody comes to his (lengthy) defense "clarifying his teaching method". No one in this thread or any others that I've seen recently has said anything but positive comments about his products and teaching. (I include myself since I have a few things from him that I thought were excellent and would recommend them to any inter/adv player).....but it always seems to come down to the marketing.
I won't go into what Direct Marketing is, but I do work for a company that deals with this sometimes and it feels like it to me.
The internet is full of people (paid) to search and post positive/negative comments about everything from government policy to what's the best laundry detergent. That's the world we live in, some would say I'm paranoid, and I would be if I didn't know for a fact that this goes on ALL THE TIME. It what all good Companies do now!!!
I'm not accusing you of doing this, just trying to clarify the way I see this.....
@targuit
If you like his re-harms in "Amazing Grace", then check out The Formula....simple concepts that are easy to understand and use, but have deep potential. Hell if you have been playing tunes for any length of time you probably already know the basic devices he teaches. It when they are put into the context of a melody or tune that you start to really hear new ways to approach simple melodies.
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Hey, all!
It is very interesting to watch and read all of the thoughts, ideas, and passionate responses on this thread! It is obvious that everybody really CARES about music and playing the guitar. My observation is that everybody is pointing to all of the same ideas, but expressing their thoughts and views from different perspectives.
The main idea that everyone seems to be referring to is "teaching effectiveness". In the video, Mr. Conti is presenting (as evidence of his teaching effectiveness) a collage of videos recorded by students that use his materials. By watching this vid, I can see that there is a wide variety of backgrounds represented by the "players" (myself included), but all of the videos exhibit skilled musicianship and expressive "music making". The RESULTS of Conti's teaching effectiveness are right there. No "ifs", "ands" or "buts".
I DARE any of those cats out there giving away their "free" lessons to compile video documentation of the effectiveness of their teaching methods. DARE. Don't even bother with the totally free sites, as they are just a regurgitation of things that others before them have said. Don't be fooled by the "glossy" production or the fancy "free e-Books". You get what you pay for. You know the sites that I am talking about.
Besides having played guitar professionally since 1967, I am a career music educator. My job is to get students further along their path of increased musicianship. My primary concern is the effectiveness of the teaching methods and materials that I incorporate. I am judged by how my students have "grown" as musicians. So, you can see why I value Mr. Conti's methods, materials, teaching demeanor, and business savvy. THEY WORK! End of story; no debate necessary. Conti is a "triple" threat: great player, effective teacher, skilled businessman.
I hope that these comments are useful. I would like to thank Tony B. for the kind words and for directing folks to our website! You might enjoy out some of our band videos at:
Swing hard!
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I never knew what 'short scale guitar' meant, so I don't know what scale length my guitar is! I learned my "Mickey Baker chords" and I'll have this one down soon enough but it was a new voicing for me and it took a bit for my fingers to go where they belong. Once I get used to it, I'll probably use it a lot too. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
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Great point. Conti has helped a lot of people play better and the videos are there for anyone to see. I think it's also important that people with different goals find the material useful, from younger players with drive to go pro to older players who have successful careers (-or who have retired) and want to play nice chord melodies in the cool, cool, cool of the evening for their own enjoyment. Originally Posted by mjirish
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His method seems kind of similar to Rich Severson's. Can anyone contrast the differences?
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Thanks, Jeff. As they say "no harm, no foul". Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The types of things I was responding to were about his "over the top marketing", which until I started really looking seriously at what it takes to run an online business, I was somewhat on the fence about too because I have been considering doing some sort of business and am a bit squeamish about marketing at all. But Conti is a smart businessman, excellent player, and teacher, and not afraid to promote himself. I don't know how else he would be heard above the noise (reference my earlier post about credentials). I was adding what I had discovered as background to why Conti advertises in ways some might find to be at least somewhat critical of. It is those of us who have not done that kind of business and/or have relatively "safe" jobs (from having to actively sell our services) that look at it even remotely critically. I do know that other people either in business or planning to be, are watching Conti and taking notes because he is successful.
The "No Scales, No Modes" thing seems to be another point of contention for some, though I can see your comment about people not understanding it and running off thinking they don't have to do ANY work to learn to play. As we would agree on, it takes a lot of sustained effort to learn to play guitar even moderately well. Where we each choose to put that effort might be somewhat different, but that is OK by me. However, "No Scales, No Modes" is Conti's identifier for his business and really does mean something worthwhile. We should keep in mind that here is a working musician (we know how little these guys make relative to having a "steady" job with a decent salary) who is trying to run a business and has to contend with all manner of comments that seem (whether intended by those posting or not) to misrepresent what he is about. Unfortunately, reputations are made and unmade very quickly on the internet. We can imagine what it must feel like to a person in Conti's position having to read this kind of stuff and stay out of it because, as we have seen elsewhere and at other times, intervention by an internet business owner can make things go sour really quickly.
I think that a discussion such as we (all) have been having in this thread is probably best suited to a face-to-face discussion because what is typed as a long-winded message can be said in person in a matter of a minute or two and having facial expression, tone of voice, and body language really helps to facilitate clear communication and mutual understanding all around. To me, that is most likely the issue we have here in this thread - this form of communication misses almost all of what humans need to give context to what is being said and heard.
I don't think we have ever exchanged posts, so at least we are getting to know each other, which is a good thing.
TonyLast edited by tbeltrans; 05-22-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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djangoles - Originally Posted by djangoles
If you read my response to Mr. Beaumont (that response is not specifically to/at him, but in general addresses the types of things that I felt I needed to address), maybe that will explain what has motivated me. Other than that, there is really not much more I can say about this. I took a lot of time to write those responses and I tried to be informative, but if how you saw them is what you stated here, I guess we will just leave it at that. I am not taking any offense at it. You already know what Conti teaches, so for you it would all be a rehash anyway.
Your response to targuit was spot on. Conti does not claim to have invented the things he teaches, but he did come up with how he presents it and it isn't ours to give away, so I appreciate how you worded that.
Targuit - I think you would really enjoy The Formula, based on what you have been saying in this thread.
Tony
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I guess it's a matter of priorities. I have considered purchasing one of his DVDs in the past, but by now I suspect I have internalized any such 'formulas' for creating arrangements which I do on my own. The only instructional material I have ever purchased of this nature was a Martin Taylor performance video of six Jimmy Van Heusen songs mostly for the opportunity to analyze his playing technique and to access his arrangement in standard notation. Martin, who is an excellent 'teacher' in my book, simply plays through his arrangements as a performance, followed by a slower tempo rendition, and then comments on aspects of the arrangement. He does have some other DVDs that address approaching chord melody playing which are well presented. With my experience and theoretical background I find Martin's approach more compelling, but it's likely a stylistic choice, like whether you prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream.
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It seems like I'm the only one here who wasn't already playing chord melody at a pro level! I got a lot out of this and think it's worth the time it'll take me to get it smooth. I suppose we all vary in how much help we need in various areas; chord melody was my weakest one but day by day, I'm getting better at it. Talk about incentive to practice it more! ;o)
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Not at all! I still don't think I'm anywhere near pro level. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I think it's just you're viewing it as a piece of music to learn that will benefit you technique wise as well as show you insight as to how to create your own, whereas most folks here want to dive right in and make their own. That was my path...not better, but different--but I did know a lot of folks here wanted to make their own, which is why I supplied my advice here in the first place.
I guess it's simply that I never wanted to play anybody else's stuff note for note. I think there's plenty of folks out there who think more like you do--maybe they just didn't click on this thread!
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@tbeltrans...no worries it's all good....
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You may be right. I never regretted learning some Charlie Christian and Herb Ellis lines note for note. It was only after doing that that I had those things down well enough to experiment with them. I think learning some pro-level chord melody arrangements will help me along the path of creating my own. Obviously, if I could already do it, I would! But I can't, so I seek help. (The reason I don't belong to any writing forums is that I don't think they would help my writing; the reason I belong to a jazz guitar forum is that I think it will help my playing! If I didn't need help, I wouldn't be here; I thought everyone felt that way but I guess not. Which is fine. The world, and this forum, is a big place.) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Well, just to keep the conversation going-- I don't think learning Charlie Christian lines is the same thing as learning a whole solo arrangement...
I also don't think people here don't need help...but I do think people have different goals, and are looking for different things--which I need to remember. I always come at any question or topic posed here as coming from a jazz perspective, and that's not always the case.
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At the risk of sounding partisan, if anyone wants to improve their chord melody skills via instructional videos, I would recommend investigating Martin Taylor's DVDs that are available through Stephan Grossman's Guitar Workshop or something like that. Putting him into a Google search should bring him up. Martin has several types of DVDs available but at least one is directed to developing skills at chord melody playing. As much as I like Robert Conti's musicianship, Martin is a superior teacher in my opinion. I'll post a link to the web site. Of course, many are aware that he has a sophisticated interactive teaching site, the Guitar Academy, as well. If I had more money and time to burn, that would be where I would look.
Jay
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Hey, folks!
I own most of the Martin Taylor DVD's and am a member of the G. Academy. Martin is pretty adamant that he doesn't play "chord melody". By his own admission, he plays melodies and bass lines and adds some chord "pops" in there to sweeten the deal. That's what separates Martin's playing and concept from most everybody else. Jay is probably using the term "chord melody" in a very generic way. It most often refers to the "block voicing" concept that arrangers use, and was a hallmark of Art Tatum's and George Shearing's styles. Martin's "Don't call them chords" concept is much more akin to J.S. Bach's multi-voice writing and music. Martin doesn't teach "chord grips". He shows how to use the 10th interval to develop independent two-voice arrangements that are decorated by occasional use of 2-note comp voicings.
It is fun to take Conti's chord melody arrangements and just play the top note (melody) and the bottom note (bass note and line) from the chord diagrams. Voila! You sound pretty much like Martin Taylor! So, you've got the best of both worlds.
I just wanted to clear that point up as to how Martin's and Conti's outward approaches differ, but they both lead you to the same place.
Martin states that the real "magic" to his style is in the way that he breaks up the lines rhythmically with his right hand. However, he has yet to reveal these concepts by explaining or demonstrating them in detail. He says, "I just use whatever finger is available". I'm sure that Martin doesn't even think about the right hand stuff anymore, but trust me: that is where the really cool magic is going on. I have studied the videos relentlessly and have a pretty good grip on a few of the basic ideas. If you apply those "taylorisms" to Conti's arrangements, they produce similar results.
FYI
Mike
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No, you are not the only one. I wasn't, and am not, either. HopefullyI stated clearly that when I played in the road band, I was not a great, or even particularly good, guitar player. It was simply that I had the skills the band leader was looking for - the ability to read charts, follow directions, and keep time. There were hundreds, if not thousands of guys doing the same thing back then. I am just glad to have the opportunity to do it and the choice to not continue to do it, so that I can live comfortably playing for my own enjoyment and when there is a band that is fun to work with, do that too. I am not a jazz player and don't make any claims at being oe. I just enjoy playing music and leave it at that. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Tony
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Originally Posted by djangoles
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I disagree. I think people here DO need help. I mean, there probably is not one sane person in this bunch, including me! A sane person would come home from work, grab a beer, and plop down in front of the TV. Instead we grab guitars or head for the forum. How wierd is that? I doubt there is a cure for it either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anyway, learning a few lines is not the same as learning a whole arrangement - I do agree, but both can be good learning experiences.
Tony
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Martin's playing is quite distinctive and I would certainly recognize if I saw a video of somebody playing in his style. I have not seen anybody doing that on Youtube or elsewhere. Is there anybody actually learning to play like Martin Taylor and if so, where are the videos? Originally Posted by targuit
By the way, I have always thought having a name that consists of the names of two fine makers of acoustic guitars is pretty neat.
Tony
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