Robert Conti - The Formula

**artcore** · 12-06-2012, 04:50 PM

I've messed around with reharmonization, the basic stuff like tritone subs and minor cords for 7th subs...I have Cord substitution by Eddie Arkin...I have worked through the book...I haven't got it all down for sure...If you have The formula, what do you think, is it worth the 40 bucks if you already know the basics?... Rich Arnolds little piece has peaked my interest...

**Rick5** · 12-06-2012, 06:00 PM

I love it. The Formula and Randy Felts' Reharmonization techniques are the two books I keep coming back to.

**artcore** · 12-06-2012, 06:26 PM

Wondering what cord forms does he work with...The drop2...or 2/3....

**Rick5** · 12-06-2012, 06:58 PM

Sorry. I realized my response was incredibly uninformative. LOL. Basically, in the book, he'll give multiple bars of a common progression (e.g., ii - V - I) with a melody and then he shows multiple examples illustrating how he would go about reharmonizing it. He very clearly explains his thinking process for the reharms (i.e., the devices that he employs for reharmonizations). There are maybe 20 or so examples in the book with a very wide range of progressions. Then, at the end, there are a couple of completely reharmonized tunes. The book is more about his thinking process (with multiple examples) than any specific type of chord voicing (although it is loaded with applied examples of chord voicings). The samples below look very much like the types of things you'll see in the book. The DVD pretty much follows the book exactly.

Jazz Guitar Instruction by a verifiable professional - Robert Conti - No Modes No Scales® Jazz Guitar

**artcore** · 12-06-2012, 10:25 PM

Thanks, so its not nessasary to buy the first book in this series, the assembly line?.....

**Rick5** · 12-07-2012, 07:26 AM

Nah. I'd pass on that one unless you have trouble looking at a chart and figuring out voicings with the melody on the top (i.e., you are just getting started with chord melody playing). That one is a very basic book. All that one does is show you how to create voicings with a given melody note on the top - "Here's an A-7 with the root on top," "Here's an A-9 with ninth on top."

I would have to check, but I am pretty sure that every voicing he shows in the Chord Melody Assembly Line also appears in one or more places in The Formula.

**artcore** · 12-07-2012, 09:16 AM

thanks...very helpful...

**Rick5** · 12-07-2012, 10:19 AM

You're welcome!

**Stevebol** · 12-08-2012, 12:20 PM

I decided to try one of his chord melody books. The example looked interesting.

**artcore** · 12-22-2012, 11:39 AM

I have the formula, not all new stuff but explained in a good way with examples.
Rick, on page 11 he subs a Bb7 for G7...he wanted to walk up a minor 3rd but he uses the logic of two common tones...to justify the Bb7 sub....thats a stretch isn't it?...is there another way of looking at this...I would like to remember this, but I doubt I will....I guess you could say that the root note and the minor 3rd interval was what he was after and the cord was justified with two common notes...if that makes any sense...

**bako** · 12-22-2012, 12:27 PM

Notes of Bb7 in relation to G7

Bb---#9

D---5

F---b7

Ab---b9

All solid G dominant notes.

This relationship is often extracted from the H/W Diminished Scale.
Notes of that scale in relation to G7.

Bb---#9

B---3

C#---#11

D---5

E---13

F---b7

G---1

Ab---b9

Same Scale Notes in relation to Bb7

Bb---1

B---b9

C#---#9

D---3

E---#11

F---5

G---13

Ab---b7

So on paper it is a very clear useable substitution and is a relatively common piece of harmonic practice.
Most important play it and get it in your ear to know what sounds these numbers represent.
From that vantage point you can best decide when, where and if to integrate this dominant relationship into your playing.

In the diminished scale realm, G7 and Bb7 are just half the total package of inter-related dominants.
Here's the rest.

G7 / Bb7 / Db7 / E7 //

**gstarfire** · 12-22-2012, 02:06 PM

I use both of Conti's chord melody books-the Assembly Line & The Formula.
The first is more of a DIY approach to harmonising a melody employing a given selection chords/ shapes. This can be helpful as a 'quick fix' and useful for getting together an arrangement from the Real Book and similar publications.
As already outlined the formula refers more to the thinking behind the methods Bob Conti uses and opens a window into his creative mind.
In my view both are excellent publications and I find myself referring to them when I want a refresher or indeed some inspiration.
Link these to Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry then you will have a lot of very interesting study.
gstarfire

**artcore** · 12-23-2012, 10:34 AM

Ok I get it...thanks Bako for the explanation....that makes sense.....yeah ,there is a lot of good stuff in cord chemistry....I think the most helpful books are those that offer an insite into the creative process....we all can't have Robert Conti as our personal teacher....These type of books are few and far between....

**ASATcat** · 12-23-2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by artcore

I've messed around with reharmonization, the basic stuff like tritone subs and minor cords for 7th subs...I have Cord substitution by Eddie Arkin...I have worked through the book...I haven't got it all down for sure...If you have The formula, what do you think, is it worth the 40 bucks if you already know the basics?... Rich Arnolds little piece has peaked my interest...

I have that Ed Arkin book, you're the only other person I've heard own it..

I really like that book, it introduced me to quartal harmony.

**edh** · 12-23-2012, 10:27 PM

Is there a lot of information in there about quartal harmony or is it very brief?

**ASATcat** · 12-23-2012, 10:35 PM

I haven't really read that book in twenty years but I recall it being very comprehensive. I still have it, but am only looking at Goodrick and Vincent books with any interest right now, well mostly those two.

**artcore** · 12-24-2012, 09:27 AM

Arkin explains quartal harmony well enough...he gets carried away with the substitutions, the V of V of V...it seems to me to be a little over done...Still a very good book to play through and pick up some ideas...I read through the book and picked out the main points and wrote up list of them on the back cover of the book to use as a reference...Doing the same with Conti's book.

**artcore** · 12-26-2012, 09:27 AM

this substitution stuff is not as hard to understand as it seems..Just need the right explanations to get down to the nuts and bolts and what its all about. using it is the creative part...Conti runs through examples of how he uses it.
I usually have to digest stuff like this then arrange it in my mind that makes sense to me...Of course if I don't use it....its going to slip away....

**wkriski** · 01-12-2013, 09:59 AM

Robert Conti has the best explanation I've ever seen. Most chord moves are up in fourths, down chromatic, diatonic, minor 3rds, etc. Also he's got a lot of chord melody arrangements that you can study. I find that the bass movements become quite similar over time just with different melodies attached.

**oldplayer2** · 01-12-2013, 02:53 PM

Here is my first post.
The change from G to Bb is the first change in 'Here's That Rainy Day'.
I tend learn songs with interesting changes.
I am an old bass player who plays chord/melody on a classical guitar.

Oldplayer2

**Cabbycabbage** · 01-15-2013, 10:04 AM

I have to say that the Formula (for me) opened up a new world. Bob Conti has a knack of simplifying devices and ideas then presenting them in a form that even a relative newcommer to Jazz can immediately understand and start to utilize. The presentation in the accompanying DVD is great and I found that the assimilation of the information given was easy, enjoyable and encouraging. I also have the Chord Assembly Line product, and again it helped me to progress through the Formula. You do gain a good grounding in the way he starts to build his chord lines. I guess it is a sort of "this is how I have learnt to do it and it works" In fact the results speak for themselves. If you want a great place to start these two publications (dependant on your current level) will certainly get you on the correct path. Oh I should mention that there are very few "tricky" chord voicings used, however that is not to say that the ideas lack any sophistication, far from it. You will certainly be making chord melody arrangements that won't entail you taking a change of underpants with you to your live gig. They do get the job done.!
I would have no hesitation at all in recommending any of his source code products.

Hope this helps!

Best wishes all.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-15-2013, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by artcore

I have the formula, not all new stuff but explained in a good way with examples.
Rick, on page 11 he subs a Bb7 for G7...he wanted to walk up a minor 3rd but he uses the logic of two common tones...to justify the Bb7 sub....thats a stretch isn't it?...is there another way of looking at this...I would like to remember this, but I doubt I will....I guess you could say that the root note and the minor 3rd interval was what he was after and the cord was justified with two common notes...if that makes any sense...

I've been thinking about this because of something I was doing with Carol Kaye's material, substituting diminished chords for dominant sevenths, such as Ab dim for G7. Then I started thinking, okay, let's say Ab dim is G7, but isn't Ab dim also B dim and D dim and F dim? Yes, all have the same four notes: Ab, B, D, and F. They're identical. But if Ab dim is also G7, doesn't it follow that Bb7 is B dim and Db7 is D dim and E7 is F dim? Yes, it does. But does THAT mean that G7 and Bb7 and Db7 and E7 are the same chord? NO! However, they have more in common than might appear at first glance. G7 and Db 7 are b5 subs for one another, and so are E7 and Bb7! That's pretty nifty, no? When you play the chords in a row, say, E7 Db7 Bb7 G7, they make a cohesive line.

**Solo Flight** · 01-15-2013, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbycabbage

You will certainly be making chord melody arrangements that won't entail you taking a change of underpants with you to your live gig.

Cabby - This gets my vote as the most descriptive (and helpful) review of Mr. Conti's method.

**djangoles** · 01-15-2013, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I've been thinking about this because of something I was doing with Carol Kaye's material, substituting diminished chords for dominant sevenths, such as Ab dim for G7. Then I started thinking, okay, let's say Ab dim is G7, but isn't Ab dim also B dim and D dim and F dim? Yes, all have the same four notes: Ab, B, D, and F. They're identical. But if Ab dim is also G7, doesn't it follow that Bb7 is B dim and Db7 is D dim and E7 is F dim? Yes, it does. But does THAT mean that G7 and Bb7 and Db7 and E7 are the same chord? NO! However, they have more in common than might appear at first glance. G7 and Db 7 are b5 subs for one another, and so are E7 and Bb7! That's pretty nifty, no? When you play the chords in a row, say, E7 Db7 Bb7 G7, they make a cohesive line.

Hey MarkRhodes,

If you are interested in looking a bit more at what you are describing above, you may want to look at the Barry Harris stuff.
Since his teaching methods are heavily based in it, it may open up some more doors.

**Cabbycabbage** · 01-15-2013, 11:43 AM

Solo Flight (Nice name by the way!) You are more than welcome!
Please do not hesitate to ask if you need any more helpful ideas on "Bandstand Hygiene"!

Brrrrrrrump!