Why do they continue to build non-ergonomic nylon string guitars?

[O'Hanlon]

For centuries now nylon string players have played guitars with over wide necks which are thick, flat and non ergonomic for any player. Why does this tradition continue. Luthiers are still producing these in mad profusion, but why?

This type of neck does not naturally suit the hand and wrist and often results in problems for nylon fingerstyle guitarists.

Having played both nylon and steel strung guitars fingerstyle, chord melody. classical and flamenco for many many years, there is no need for these flat heavyweight guitars.

1 7/8"('in old money')is all that is needed at the nut end and a slim 'C' curve works well as all you electric and steel strung guitarists know.

Everyone-Please encourage manufacturers/luthiers to be adventurous and produce a new style/ergonomic guitar.

[m78w]

If you're looking for a new maker that is maker smaller scale nylon guitars, with and without cutaways, check out Doolin guitars. John Stowell plays one, and he was an understudy of the great maker Elliot.

MW

[Stackabones]

Check out hybrid nylon-string guitars, which have slimmer nuts and a fretboard with a radius. La Patrie has one (Hybrid CW) as well as Godin in the Multiacs, and Breedlove has one too iirc.


They are also referred to as crossover classical guitars.

btw, Yamaha used to make a thinline f–hole nylon with a neck as thin as a tele. The AEX 500N ...


I have one and it's pretty sweet.

[silverstrummer]

It must suit their style otherwise they (the guitars) would be sellected out of the guitar population(a sort of un-natural selction) but I know what you mean--I am sure this style of kneck has put off many a young aspiring guitarist

Silver

[mr. beaumont]

for playing classical, the wide flat neck coupled with proper posture and technique is a perfect combination, and better for the guitarist. look into the hybrids.

[Goofsus4]

Well, I am a rock climber so I cannot have long nails. So, when I play fingerstyle, I appreciate the wide necks because I must play with the fleshy parts of my fingers only, which requires a heck of a lot of accuracy on a narrower neck guitar. In fact, I would like to find a steel string with a nice wide neck - I hear that some of the gypsy jazz guitars have classical width nuts but still run steel strings but I haven't had a chance to play any yet.

[Stackabones]

I hear that some of the gypsy jazz guitars have classical width nuts but still run steel strings but I haven't had a chance to play any yet.

Yep. My Gitane D-500 (grande bouche) has a wide neck, 1 7/8" -- not quite the traditional classical 2", but pretty close. It was originally designed as a classical, and the steel string versions still retain the wide neck and have ladder bracing.

I use the recommended 11s (Savarez Argentine loop-ends) on mine. One of the loudest acoustics I've ever played ... drowns out dreads and keeps up with mandolins and banjos -- especially if you use the rest-stroke technique and a fat pick.

btw ... there are some of the grande bouche guitars being made with nylon strings. Most are a bit spendy, but there are rumors that Gitane may be putting out a budget model.

Gypsy jazzer/French pop star Thomas Dutronc plays a Dupont Grande Bouche nylon. Dupont has two models, and Manouche Guitars has one. There are a few others.

[O'Hanlon]

If you're looking for a new maker that is maker smaller scale nylon guitars, with and without cutaways, check out Doolin guitars. John Stowell plays one, and he was an understudy of the great maker Elliot.

MW

Thanks for the info. Doolin are a bit too pricy for me- about £5K per guitar. Whoops. Having got 7 guitars already from a bass guitar, strat,jazz,flamenco,, classical etc guitars, really looking for something around the £500 mark.

Thought an electro acoustic nylon 'Breedlove' was the answer with its thin top, bass bar and bridge truss system.

Not so its a terrible guitar-very dissappointing. Terrible flat tone, no sustain, no presence-in fact useless unless you use the electrics.

How they can sell this guitar as acoustic plus electrics heaven knows. Even a top well known guitar maker and retailer agrees!

[Shel]

My friend in Portland knows John Stowell. He plays that Doolin with the guitar on its hind end-this arrangement seems to suit his long fingers.Stowell insists this angle is the only way to play. When George Benson does it, I'll take notice..This CM of 'Green Dolphin" is a load of fun. I am insatiable regarding these CMs. Any chance of a 'Moonlight Serenade?"

[m78w]

Sure I can have that CM up later today.

MW

[Herby]

Luthiers are still producing these in mad profusion, but why?

This type of neck does not naturally suit the hand and wrist and often results in problems for nylon fingerstyle guitarists.

Having played both nylon and steel strung guitars fingerstyle, chord melody. classical and flamenco for many many years, there is no need for these flat heavyweight guitars.

Whoa... talk about a mad profusion. (just kidding : ).

I'm sure glad no one told me early on that my hands weren't suited to the nylon stringed guitar. I often tell students that the difference between nylon and steel strung guitars is similar to the difference between the piano and organ. If you can play one, you can play the other, but you are more comfortable with the one you specialize in. I'm so used to the classical, that when I play a narrowed necked guitar it gives me the feeling of playing a ukelele. To each his own.

[Sailor]

The "classic" guitar is a necessary and useful instrument. Especially for playing
period music that was written for it. I play jazz, blues, and classical all on one instrument. I believe there are many others like myself who love the wide flat neck and find it more ergo than the thin radiused necks of electric and folk guitars.

Like the violin and cello, there will always be a huge demand for this instrument!

Sailor

[O'Hanlon]

Hi

Each to his own Sailor! Try playing it for 40 years continuously and see what it can do for your hands.

I still have a wide(normal) neck, good quality classical and flamenco guitar. Love 'en to bits. Fantastic sound but my hands don't agree with me! O.K.

I'm not the only person with this view, know several classical professional players who surprisingly agree with my sentiment. ( and there are not geriactics!)

[Chordwayze]

I try finger-style on my Gibsons and the only model I have any success with is the Custom L5. It must have a slightly wider fretboard than the ES-175. But as I can't pat my head with one hand, and simultaneously rub my belly with the other, I can't play any advanced right hand finger-style. The moment I try to do something on the treble strings with my right hand fingers, my thumb stops moving through the bass.

It's like the Vulcan hand sign in Star Trek. You can either do it or you can't. (Although I can do that, strangely enough. ) Not being able to use finger-style annoys me, because it ought to be in the genes! My Grandfather played tenor banjo and he must have used finger-style. My finger-style is limited to 'Chug-a-boom' chord rhythm and the occasional Wes style octave playing! Whatever the width of the fingerboard, take your pick; I have to! Now I'm in my dotage, it's too late to change.

If anyone seeks a jazz guitar, with a superb neck, try to get an Aria Pro-Arte ll 'Herb Ellis' model. Great finger board, great sounding guitar.

Cheers folks
John

[jimmy]

amen .jimmy

[Chordwayze]

Well, I am a rock climber so I cannot have long nails. So, when I play fingerstyle, I appreciate the wide necks because I must play with the fleshy parts of my fingers only, which requires a heck of a lot of accuracy on a narrower neck guitar. In fact, I would like to find a steel string with a nice wide neck - I hear that some of the gypsy jazz guitars have classical width nuts but still run steel strings but I haven't had a chance to play any yet.

Hi Goofus,
You are saying that you need space between the strings for your right-hand fingers suely? Long nails on the left-hand are a nuisance to a r/h player. I know! My nails grow pretty fast and they are tough. I have to keep my eye on the left hand because long nails foul the surface of the fingerboard, interfere with fretting pressure and I get 'buzzing'.

I already pointed out, that the Gibson L5 has a slightly wider neck than the ES 175. Presumably because it also has a full-width bout. As you play finger style and you like wide fingerboards and steel strings, have a look at Jimmy Foster's site. He makes 7 string archtops. They look and sound superb. Also, they appear to have a wide fretboard, even given that they need room for that extra string! I guess rock climbing and Guitar are not what we would call compatible hobbies.

Happy New year and enjoy your climbing.

John

[Chordwayze]

amen .jimmy

Thanks Jimmy!

[Goofsus4]

Hi Goofus,
You are saying that you need space between the strings for your right-hand fingers suely?

I guess rock climbing and Guitar are not what we would call compatible hobbies.

Happy New year and enjoy your climbing.

John

Thanks, John. Yes, I meant that the classical offer more space for the right hand while picking with just the flesh of the finger tips (at least it seems like it).

Climbing does mean no nails finger style (if you are a serious climber). I play a lot of Flamenco and I always envy the tone the players with the fingernails can get. But since I have no professional aspirations, it's not a big deal. It still sounds pretty enough compared to, oh let's say, not playing at all!

[Sailor]

A lot of guys in college used press-on nails for performance, classical. Put them on, file, practice, take them off, climb!!!!!!!

Sailor

[Goofsus4]

A lot of guys in college used press-on nails for performance, classical. Put them on, file, practice, take them off, climb!!!!!!!

Sailor

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks!

[wordsmith]

I was surprised to see the level of interest and opinion regarding classical guitars. I personally find the wider string spacing and flat fretboard a refreshing change from acoustic steel-string and electric.
Then again, I don't try to play jazz on my classical, so maybe there's a factor in there somewhere.
PS Something I really love about my classical....tune it up nicely,then pluck the open low E string together with the Gsharp ( 11th fret) on the A string.
Something nice here, harmonically.. Just an E with a third in the octave above. If you play around with the Gsharp and the Fsharp and A either side of it, whilst kind of droning in time with the low E, you seem to get....drama!
Then skip up to do the same with the Csharp on the D string, piddling around with it and the B and the D either side whilst droning on the A string.....something going on there. Not jazz, though. Harmonically rich, I would say. And simple beyond belief!!
For further embellishment....try the notes B, D and G (last....chromatic lead-in?) on the A string, whilst plucking the low E with them, as a lead into the lowE/Gsharp thingy......starts to get a bit symphonic.

Or maybe I'm just nuts!

Only works well on classical for me, probably because of the dynamics of the instrument. On acoustic....so-so. Electric...well, why bother? Probably better things to do with the time available!

PS I've never tried to describe something I play before, so apologies if it doesn't make sense. My wife rates it, although it is not anything by itself.....needs an in.....and an out....to somewhere.....???? Or other! Then back again, probably. Dunno, I am not Beethoven!

Maybe this should be off-topic?

[Sailor]

Hey Wordsmith - I only play jazz on my classical, try it you'll love it.

Sailor

[pierre richard]

I play my Ibanez 2355 (ES175) electric with pick...like Burrell,Farlow,Ellis,Smith,Roberts etc..etc..

For added treat I play my classical Charlie Byrd style....

Best of both worlds???...

Different styles..different guitars..right??

Time on the instrument is time well spent...Pierre...

[wordsmith]

Hello, Sailor!
Do I detect a smattering of sarcasm here?
I think I do.
Never nice...sarcasm.
Whatever happened to reasoned debate....cor...I remember when we had real money, and foil tops on milk bottles.

[Sailor]

Wordsmith - no sarcasm at all. I play jazz on a nylon string guitar, thats all.

Check out my other 700 posts, I don't argue and I'm not sarcastic. Don't come on and judge us old timers too quickly or harshly until you know us!!

Sailor