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Hi all.
This video is the last in my 10 part 'Building A Jazz Guitar Workshop' series but most of the video, is me talking about different ways to approach laminate building, from the perspective of someone using a hi-tech, computer based approach, whilst being new to the guitar building process.
I thought the subjects covered deserved their own thread. In fact each subject discussed deserves its own thread but that would require so much more editing
Happy to discuss what I've learnt and keen to learn more from fellow members.
The workshop tour is at beginning but you can skip that.
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05-01-2024 04:24 PM
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Good video. Having worked in the auto industry for a good long time, and having been in many, many plants of all sizes and levels of technology, it certainly sounds like you are on the right track. You have a good looking shop. How about a picture of the wood pile? I always like looking at those.
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I’ll send one over later.
Originally Posted by Brian859
it’s not spectacular as yet. More utilitarian.
I also need more space to put it.
As with all shops, space is a premium.
I appreciate your feedback and thanks for the support. I’ve had a tough couple weeks so it always helps one get stay motivated.
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Thats what I thought probably at this point. You watch the yairi plant tour and they have 20' tall stacks of rosewood all over the place. I found this place on the web. They sell guitar wood in various states of readiness. I like the feel, look and sound of wenge. They will even bend the side of guitars. Its in valencia and don't know the import rules in britain, but they say they have a saw mill in canada which has much, much wood. Maybe it can help. Archtop Guitar Woods| Maderas Barber
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Brian thanks.
There is also a huge sawmill out in Germany where I hope to acquire my spruce plates.
They also do pre pressed solid arched plates but that’s not suitable for what I’m trying to do.
Most of the wood I have is curing for necks, and top veneers.
It is going to be an issue though and one that could hamper my initial plans.
I can buy large amounts of poplar (tulip wood), sycamore (our maple), wenge (which is beautiful but very heavy). Also sapele (i’ve got some beautiful figured sapele) and mahogany. All in slabs.
That doesn’t need to be cured as it will be cut into veneers so I can almost buy it in as required. A 1mm veneer is going to be glued so likely it won’t matter if 13 or 9% moisture.
So although my wood supply looks small, there is probably 30 guitars worth.
Keep the knowledge coming
Last edited by Archie; 05-03-2024 at 07:54 PM.
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All very good Archie! Fun to watch the progression. I want to see some guitars!
Preaching to the choir on vacuum pressing here, as you may remember. Here's a little story: I worked in a shop that had this huge 4 x 8 hand cranked press. Maybe 6 courses of 4 screws, about 1 1/2" diameter shafts with like 3" steel feet on them. Giant fir cauls about 4" thick. You'd charge around this monster with a 2 foot long purpose made wrench and tighten it down bit by bit, racing against the glue. A real workout. And there were frequent failures. I suspected the cauls. Or possibly the glue spread, which is often over-looked.
I had previously worked in a place with a vacuum bag. Early model in 1990. I asked the owner why we were using this out-dated tech when there was a far more efficient and cheaper way: "Vacuum pressing doesn't work. Not enough pressure". Being fairly new to the place I left it there, and left the place soon after.
I started my own little shop. I bought a VacuPress. Later I started working for someone else and sold my press to him. Still going strong 30 years on. I used to joke with the new boss: "Every time I hit the switch I wonder if it's going to work this time".
So being the control freak you are :) I'm wondering what you're doing to control the glue spread. You're working so hard for consistency I figure you must have something special going on.
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Hey CC Originally Posted by ccroft
All very good Archie! Fun to watch the progression. I want to see some guitars!
Preaching to the choir on vacuum pressing here, as you may remember. Here's a little story: I worked in a shop that had this huge 4 x 8 hand cranked press. Maybe 6 courses of 4 screws, about 1 1/2" diameter shafts with like 3" steel feet on them. Giant fir cauls about 4" thick. You'd charge around this monster with a 2 foot long purpose made wrench and tighten it down bit by bit, racing against the glue. A real workout. And there were frequent failures. I suspected the cauls. Or possibly the glue spread, which is often over-looked.
I had previously worked in a place with a vacuum bag. Early model in 1990. I asked the owner why we were using this out-dated tech when there was a far more efficient and cheaper way: "Vacuum pressing doesn't work. Not enough pressure". Being fairly new to the place I left it there, and left the place soon after.
I started my own little shop. I bought a VacuPress. Later I started working for someone else and sold my press to him. Still going strong 30 years on. I used to joke with the new boss: "Every time I hit the switch I wonder if it's going to work this time".
So being the control freak you are I'm wondering what you're doing to control the glue spread. You're working so hard for consistency I figure you must have something special going on.
Sorry my notifications from the forum seem to be all over the place.
Yes that does sound like quite the work out!!
Re: glueing, I haven't done any so to be honest, I don’t know. Like with all of this, I work it out in stages. The gluing stage is coming up, as soon as I get the veneer cutting phase finished (hopefully next week). I’m having trouble with my new bandsaw which is bloody annoying and has set me back two weeks.
I think regarding squeeze out and set time, I’m going to be using a two part UF resin, so the mixture will allow me to determine the set times and how fast I have to work.
Obviously the more glue you use, the more you’ll have run out, so priority number one will be finding out how much glue is best per sheet. Then working out the issues from there.
Butt joining the veneers is another part of the process that will be fiddly and time consuming. One way to do it would be to use glue tape on the joins. It's about 2 microns thick but I’m not keen as I don’t want to introduce a third party material.
There are many reasons why buying in wide kinfe cut sheets, rapidly increases lamination time and so will try to source something high enough quality if I can.
I’d obviously really appreciate your help. I sometimes think about you when working away and what you would say. You've got a lot of experience and I hope to put it to good use, I enjoy your stories regarding your working days.
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I've used UF a lot (the nasty big press), but not for a long long time. PVA cannot be beat. We spread it with a foam roller. Your glue ups are pretty small, and I think you'd be able to get it done in time. The spread is perfect in a vacuum when you see just the little glue bubbles at the edges, and very little more than that. Too much glue is just as bad as not enough. Another cool thing about the vacuum is that it also draws moisture and air out.
Best butt joints for smaller pieces come from a shooting board, a pressure bar, and a sharp hand plane. Even birdseye and walnut burl come out perfect. Our pressure bar is just a gently bellied 2x4 piece of Ash about 4ft long, clamped to a strong bench top at the ends. I know shops that have pneumatic piston ones that attach to the slider. Altendorf makes a very very expensive one. We rarely need joints long enough to warrant that, but I've come close to making one. I have a pic somewhere of an effective home brewed one.
We stitch with veneer tape on the face then scrape and sand it off. But I just realized that we've never glued up 5 pieces of veneer to each other. We're usually just glueing 2 faces to a core. I guess I might try doing it in stages so as not to have anything extra inside the plate: make a 3 ply core and then put a face it.
How do the big boys glue up 5 ply plates? I think I saw a vid of Grez doing it, but can't remember for sure.
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And sorry to hear about the bandsaw trouble. That did seem a bit iffy to me for the kind of tolerances you're trying to achieve. It'll have to be very well tuned up.
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CC thanks for all that wonderful knowledge. Originally Posted by ccroft
Yes the bandsaw should have been spot on, especially for the money. The company are coming round to have a look at it; we'll see what they say.
In the meantime, I called Germany this morning and spoke to a tech at Panhans. They're the company I wanted to buy from but they are double the price of the bandsaw I have.
The tech was surprised to take the call and luckily spoke good English; mine is a little bit ancient Saxon. I asked him how should a bandsaws be set up and what should I expect. The problem is when you ask someone, watch a video or browse a forum, you get opposing answers. So I thought I would go to the finest manufacturers of bandsaws in the world and ask them. Starting to think I should have just asked you lol
He said that the blade flapping is most likely due to the wheels not being balanced properly or the crown on the tire, not being ground properly to an even height. If it's something that simple, then I'll be a happy boy. They can send off the ones I have a replace them with some properly machined ones. I'm convinced my bandsaw is a rebadged ACM from Italy. Most Eu bandsaws seem to be made in Italy.
I would like to get rid of the ceramic guides as well. I don't like them.
What's your idea of a well tuned up bandsaw for resawing? Bare in mind not anything too wide. 8.5" x 20". What are the main things you would want to see?
Regarding PVA, I had thought of that and will try both. UF seems the most common in veneer working over here and I know PVA is effected by heat and moisture more, plus it is softer and I wanted something that would set quite hard to aid sound transmission. We'll discuss more no doubt. Your experience is a good indicator.
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<< Regarding PVA, I had thought of that and will try both. UF seems the most common in veneer working over here and I know PVA is effected by heat and moisture more, plus it is softer and I wanted something that would set quite hard to aid sound transmission. >>
No experience here with wood laminations, but what about the 'Kaurit' liquid glues, formerly produced by BASF, now called 'Planarit'?
(New brand "Planarit": ready-made powder glues for wood working | PlanatolPlanatol )
<< As with all shops, space is a premium. >>
Hm, just a side thought and food for thoughts - yes and no! More space always looks desirable at first. But the whole thing depends on your basic desired position in the guitar industry: supplier / entrepreneur or artist / manufacturer of works of art. Gibson / Fender, et al. or D'Angelico / Artur Lang, et al.? Achieving any kind of intermediate position seems almost impossible. When you look at photos of the extremely modest workshops of the latter two, you immediately notice Leonardo da Vinci's personal recommendation; today, in the digital age, almost a provocation, but still valid:
“An artist’s studio should be a small space because small rooms discipline the mind and large ones distract it.”
In the world of art, outside the art of guitar making, there are amazing examples of how little space is actually needed to create even large and most renowned works, e.g. Alberto Giacometti in Paris (https://michaelpeppiatt.com/works/in...ttis-studio-2/ ).
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Thanks Ol' Fret. Very much food for thought. I'll look into your glue recommendation. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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Hi Arch. Been thinking about your bandsaw. Important to note that while I've set up and used them a lot, I never tried to do anything remotely like what you're doing. We have a nice 20" that seldom gets used for anything other than roughing out stock for pattern shaping. I've never tried to resaw thinner than 1/4".
But what I do recognize is that your sled will be difficult to make straight and plumb enough to take such a thin slice. I had trouble resawing with the fence. A senior guy told me that being parallel to the blade doesn't always work because blades vary. Probably more so 30 years ago before modern metal working. We had a guy down the street that made them.
Anyway, what he showed me was to draw a straight line on a piece of scrap a couple of feet long, follow it as best you can about half-way and draw a line on the table. This is the cutting path for that particular machine and that particular blade. Clamp a fence to the table parallel to that line.
Bandsaw blades also like to follow the path of least resistance. Maybe you'd have luck with a wider blade, allowing higher tension and a more rigid cutter? I mean, the machine that's designed for the purpose isn't even called a bandsaw. It's a resaw. I've never run one but I've seen a few in action. Massive heavy things running at least 2" wide blades. A lot more tension and stiffness. There must be some reason for it...
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Thanks CC. Again wise words. Originally Posted by ccroft
I was going to use the method you mentioned over the weekend to find the path of the cut. I saw a Canadian woodworker explain this method some time ago, so you're spot on. The funny thing is, my sled actually worked really well when I made the initial prototype, so it can be done but you are right about the blade choosing the path of least resistance. It's not as simple as making a sled and slicing off leafs. I thought it was but bandsaws are fussy machines and a much steeper leaning curve than you would expect.
You can use wider blades but you waste double the material. For finer bookmatching, it's best to waste as little between each leaf as possible, for reasons you understand.
I think in the end, decorative veneers which can be book matched, might be the best way to go but I would prefer to have more solid wood veneers in my stack, to aid with sound and response.
If I leave the bookmatching to knife cut veneers, which will always give the bestmatching look, then I could always chuck a 30mm resaw blade on the bandsaw and cut the internal veneers. It doesn't matter if I waste more wood between cuts this way as the wood is plain crown cut.
That being said, a leaf 300 x 3000mm of crown cut maple is £45. That will be enough to make one plate (if the plate was 100% maple).
I can buy a slab for £50 and get two plates and change.
That's another reason why I went down the bandsaw route. If this is to be commercial, then reducing that type of cost would be ideal, although you have the initial outlay and energy costs etc.
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When I listened to your arguments re vacuum-pressing I was reminded of this video from the famous - and now retired - Seattle luthier Stephen Andersen, where he shows his process of building a double-top archtop with the help of his small vacuum-press. In case you haven't seen this already , here it is :
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Thanks Gitman. Originally Posted by gitman
I have seen that video and intend on doing the very same thing.
I'd be very interested to hear one in person. I know they are very popular with classical guitarists. It actually seems like a relatively easy way to make a top.
If you see more stuff that you think of interest, please post!
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Makes sense to me!...If I leave the bookmatching to knife cut veneers, which will always give the bestmatching look, then I could always chuck a 30mm resaw blade on the bandsaw and cut the internal veneers. It doesn't matter if I waste more wood between cuts this way as the wood is plain crown cut.
But if it takes a guy twice as long to make his own veneers than to buy it, seems to me you're losing....a leaf 300 x 3000mm of crown cut maple is £45. That will be enough to make one plate (if the plate was 100% maple).
I can buy a slab for £50 and get two plates and change.
There might be something wrong with my metric and currency conversion, but man...that's seems like a really high price for one leaf of flat cut maple. Is this a specialty thickness cut or something?
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