Action height for acoustic fingerstyle archtop?

[RJVB]

Hi,

I know not many here play purely unplugged acoustic fingerstyle on their archtops, but what would be the (your) sweet spot for action height under the 1st, 6th and 3rd strings?

Before changing the saddle on my archtop I measured all sorts of things but stupidly it never occurred to me to measure the action height I had dealt in over the 2 or so I've been playing this instrument. And it turns out it's much less evident than you'd think to find that sweet spot again esp. if you're not entirely certain the saddle can go low enough.

[mr. beaumont]

I've never been one to measure action that precisely, but for fingerstyle playing I'd certainly like it lower than if I was playing rhythm with a pick...

I'd probably want it right about where my flat top is, a shade over 2mm on the bass side and right about 2mm on the treble side.

[rlrhett]

It’s very personal. I play fingerstyle and acoustic 80% of the time, and a 2,5 - 2 mm action would feel very stiff and high for me. I spend a lot of time on frets and setup because I like very low action. 1.5mm to about 1mm if I can get it.

That said, I have given my guitar to other players and they struggle not to get fret buzz. I joke that they play like they are splitting firewood! So I would suggest starting at 2-1,5 and experiment down from there.


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[RJVB]

Measuring accurately is tricky indeed, reading a ruler held next to a string not trivial at all. I realised too late that I could simply have slipped a slide rule between the top and the strings right next to the saddle.

I'd love to have only 2mm but with so little I'm sure I'll get fret buzz everywhere even without high spots. I like to dig in (and fill that room with sound), and can't really avoid using rest strokes ...

[RJVB]

1.5mm to about 1mm if I can get it.

But how much dynamic range can you get with that??

[rlrhett]

But how much dynamic range can you get with that??

All I need. Range is not the problem. Being heard over other players who are hammering at the strings like they are forging steel is. Unfortunately, I rarely play with other players and a well placed mic solves any problems at the few small venues I play.

But again, that’s why it is personal. If you play your acoustic fingerstyle like a flamenco artist, you probably want higher action. Same reason, I assume, Freddy Green played with mile high action.


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[Dennis D]

Measuring accurately is tricky indeed, reading a ruler held next to a string not trivial at all. I realised too late that I could simply have slipped a slide rule between the top and the strings right next to the saddle.

I'd love to have only 2mm but with so little I'm sure I'll get fret buzz everywhere even without high spots. I like to dig in (and fill that room with sound), and can't really avoid using rest strokes ...

As soon as I saw your phrase " I like to dig in " , I thought ' man can I relate'....
I've always preferred some string resistance, and I feel digging in demands that. I've also found that once you say ' dig in ', you've probably already settled yourself on less than lightening quick action.
I think string height reductions are ( sometimes ) hard-fought battles to be won, but success comes with examining each component. If you've got a guitar with a solid but maybe high neck joint, the job is more difficult.
But yup, the saddle is one place to look, the nut also, string gauge, bridge to top fit / shape, neck relief, ......

But think of the race car guys. For days on end, they fight for half a horsepower, 1/2 pound weight reductions, etc.....All we need here is to somehow keep that string bite we want but fight for 1/16 in. height reductions.....I think it took ( me and) my luthier two string changes on my '50's L-7, but I think I got a 1/32 in. + reduction each time and after that I called it all right ....

Good luck !

[RJVB]

As soon as I saw your phrase " I like to dig in " , I thought ' man can I relate'....
I've always preferred some string resistance, and I feel digging in demands that. I've also found that once you say ' dig in ', you've probably already settled yourself on less than lightening quick action.

I also play (a kind of) classical, so I'm used to coping with higher action (and know that actually good classical players -which I'm not claiming to be- aren't necessarily incapable of reaching the tempos often mentioned here).

I also like string resistance, but the digging in is about other things for me. I want to be able to coax the full potential out of an instrument, and when I say purely unplugged that implies without any form of amplification. I know a Loar can be a very capable instrument and mine certainly is no slouch in terms of sound quantity or quality. It is a bit held back by QC missers (rather small ones for the brand) concerning the fretboard, but I'm also aware that I've been trained to approach sound production in a way that makes me discover all of an instruments potential buzzers very quickly. In a nutshell: think of the sound you make as a rough block of marble, from which you take away what's needed to get the result you want. I'm sure there must be an e-guitar equivalent where you start with an overly distorted sound and back/roll off who knows what until you get something you like.

I've just loosened my trussrod by probably a bit more than 1/4 turn, lowered the saddle until I got buzz on the 1st string then raised it again - hopefully a net lowering overall . Relief looks acceptable, action under the low E is about 3.75mm but I'll need to try to get a better reading. There's still some buzz on the lowest frets on the G string, esp. with an open string but I can now get almost the full volume with a buzz-free free stroke that sounds close enough to a rest stroke (minus the buzz).

The nice thing with a bone saddle is that it's (probably) less risky to have 2 slots for the 2nd and 3rd strings, giving me a tiny bit more, specific control over their action height.

[Ol' Fret]

Measuring accurately is tricky indeed, reading a ruler held next to a string not trivial at all. I realised too late that I could simply have slipped a slide rule between the top and the strings right next to the saddle.

I'd love to have only 2mm but with so little I'm sure I'll get fret buzz everywhere even without high spots. I like to dig in (and fill that room with sound), and can't really avoid using rest strokes ...

My basic action height adjustment is 2.0mm for the high E and 2.5mm for the low E.
That's the starting point, the final height depends on many factors of the guitar, the strings, the player, the season and the moon phase ...

It is easy enough to measure the height without using a feeler gauge, a round measuring tool is much better anyway:
I use two little pieces of metal wires with a diameter of 2.0mm and 2.5mm. Put these wire tools between the first and sixth string at the top of the 12th fret wire and adjust the string height on your bridge wheel. You'll be surprised how exact you can do that; it's even easier to hear the "click" when the wire tool snugly "locks" between the string and the top side of the fret than to watch it.
You don't need to measure any other strings' height - unless you generally like fiddling about guitars; all other strings' height gets simply defined by the first/ sixth string height and the radius of the fretboard resp. the corresponding radius of you bridge saddle. I'm not aware that bridge saddles should have humps ...

EDIT: I like guitar players who use the pick, the thumb and the (right hand) fingers in the same song, so no different adjustments. Even impressed by instrumentalists who sometimes (care to) sing or scat one chorus.

[Enlightened Rogue]

I play fingerstyle acoustic archtop guitar. My instrument is a 17” solid carved top 1959 Rodebald Hoyer “Samba”. I use Martin Monel .012, .025w, .054w // 1st, 3rd, and 6th string. I like a flat board so there might be .010” relief. It is a 14 fret, 25.5” scale length, 1.75” nut width.

Action height measurements:

1st/E. string / 3rd/G. string / 6th/E string

@12th fret: 1.0mm. / 1.4mm. / 1.75mm

@18th fret: 1.25mm. / 1.75mm. / 2.5mm

I concentrate more on tone and feel and not so much clean speed licks ad nauseam. The string action gauge I have used for years is:

[sgosnell]

A device for measuring the gap of spark plugs works pretty well as a way to measure action height. They have a number of wires of varying diameters, around a circle. Not so great for measuring the height of the internal strings, but fine for the E strings. Old guitar strings can also work.

[jackalGreen]

I concentrate more on tone and feel and not so much clean speed licks ad nauseam. The string action gauge I have used for years is:

Yeah, same here.

A set of feeler gauges is very inexpensive, and can be had at any auto parts store, or, I would think, most music shops....but, I haven't found much use for my set.

For action height, I just use the regular string action ruler. It's plenty close enough for me. Mine isn't the same brand, I don't think, but they're all about the same, pretty sure. Just one standard template and then measure away.

Digital calipers? That's a hard negative for me. Always use the action rule, if only as a sanity check, for me. Oddly enough, digital calipers can tell you pretty well the gauge of a specific string if you're looking through a mound of them, but I've not had much luck using them for action height. Dunno why.

I have heard of people using the feeler gauges for fine tuning the neck relief, but on that, I just eyeball it, pretty much. I like slight relief on the neck, but just a few careful glances and maybe a tiny turn on the truss rods seems to do it for me. Haven't inadvertently Pete Townshended a guitar yet, so I guess that's all right.