Giving the Loar some love - new saddle

[RJVB]

Some here may remember that I asked about the saddle posts of my Loar on here, which are leaning backwards (more on the bass than on the treble side). I ended up buying a generic replacement height-adjustable saddle but until now all I did with it was removing a good 1cm on both sides to bring it down to the same with as the stick base, and sanding down those "wings" and the central part between the posts, plus quite a bit from the bottom of the saddle itself to make it go low enough. I bought a 2nd ensemble with a bone insert saddle, having to go with rosewood for that one (and deciding I'd only use the saddle, on the ebony base of the other unit).

So today I went to visit a retired classical CG luthier a couple villages over and we spent an afternoon mating the bridge to the top, and slotting the saddles. Over the course of the past few months I had already brought the relief back to a much more normal value than what I had dialled in over time (writing this I realise we didn't actually check of the neck is now more or less straight without string tension!). Playability was much better, but it turns out that the 1st fret isn't seated completely properly and with the ZeroGlide I have on that causes fretbuzz on the G string when I play it loudly enough with a rest stroke.

The stock saddle looked like it had less radius than the fretboard (untrue, though the G string does seem to be a bit low, in part due to a number of deep slots). I had hoped that a fresh saddle with the posts properly vertical would solve this problem.
The new ebony saddle has a bigger radius though, so sure enough the G string buzzed more unless I raised the action on the treble side, getting the 1st 2 strings way too high in the process.

Bummer. By then it was getting late, but my new friend (I think) accepted to sand down the bone insert of the other saddle by a good 1.5mm on his disk grinder (I should have asked for even more!). This saddle has a lot more curvature, and with a few taps on the problem spot of that 1st fret the buzz is now manageable.

It had been my plan to play a while with the fresh ebony saddle, then record some samples, and then put in the bone one - after staining the rosewood with something suitable (some india ink followed by some teak oil, probably), but I don't think I'll by putting the ebony saddle back on. It looks less technocolour than I feared though.

Unless ... would it be likely that I could increase the action near the nut by increasing relief (loosening the trussrod a bit) and keep the action at the 12th fret at its current value by lowering the saddle? With luck the action at the nut needs to be raised only minutely. The bummer here is that the saddle is already at its lowest point on the treble post - I should have asked to shave 2mm off the bottom of that insert!


Something else: with all strings out of the tailpiece I noticed the stringholder is indeed held on the wire by 2 actual nuts, one of which wasn't screwed on completely. By reflect I tightened it, and only noticed when the tension was back on and the saddle intonated (quite askew, CCW!) that the string holder is now askew in the opposite (CW) direction. Looks weird (I can live with that for now) but there's also considerably more string length after the saddle on the high strings than on the low strings. IOW, the opposite (though less markedly) as what you see on those frequensator (?) tailpieces.

Should I expect any effect of that? More treble string beyond the saddle might mean they're a little bit easier to fret (but also more capricious to tune)?
And: should I take the brunt of the tension off before I try to turn that nut? (I already tried, but with bare fingers I evidently can't get it to budge .)

FWIW, I had to tap my own shoulder for having thought of putting a paper strip on top of my stock saddle yesterday and waving a soft pencl over it to make an outline drawing of the top, the strings and the post holes. Allowed me to transfer the existing string spacing onto the new saddles pretty easily without having to think about radiuses or having to measure anything. Probably wouldn't have worked on a saddle with really much more curvature though, or would it? What's the string spacing that actually matters while playing, the one projected onto the top (supposing it's flat), or the one from string to string *along the curve*? Probably some compromise between the two?

By the time I got home and finished all chores awaiting me it was too late to practise, but I did play a bit (and attempted to polish that high spot a bit with 1200 grit sandpaper). Initial impression is that I'm not disappointed in the sound the bone saddle gives. I may have lost some of the warmth (my really old, brass D and A sound a bit livelier again, I'd say) but I didn't notice any nasal sounds for now and the high notes on the E and B are probably not as much brighter/ringier than I maybe hoped.

[RJVB]

Got the scale out today to weigh the stock saddle. As I already feared, the original base/bridge weighs about 2/3 less: 20gr vs. the 27gr of the new bridge (should have taken off even more material!). The original saddle is a smitten heavier (8gr vs 7gr) but overall I lost out a bit on the exchange in this department. Theoretically at least, it will (hopefully) be difficult to quantify the effect of that bit of extra moving weight.

I also had a closer look at that original bridge. The posts were indeed in a bit askew, not bent (whew) and I managed to get them back in straighter. It actually looks like the leaning is part due to the fact the way the edges are cut of the 2 ends that go around/over the posts; they're not vertical, esp. on the treble side. The front/back edges of the central part seem to better perpendicular to a supporting flat surface but overall the thing won't lie stable on and flush to a flat surface on either side.

So it looks like I'm going to see if I can get those sides sanded a bit flatter and then try to lower the top around the slots for the 2nd and 1st strings (both already about 1mm deep) so I can get a bit more action height under the G.

[RJVB]

With some fretboard (lemon) oil on the rosewood saddle holder it doesn't even look particularly odd on top of the ebony bridge. Kind of repeats the sunburst pattern...

[garybaldy]

With some fretboard (lemon) oil on the rosewood saddle holder it doesn't even look particularly odd on top of the ebony bridge. Kind of repeats the sunburst pattern...

Looks like you have a substantial height on your bridge and therefore a good break angle. My 700 looks a lot less than that. I have been contemplating a neck reset.

[RJVB]

Looks like you have a substantial height on your bridge and therefore a good break angle.

Yeah, I think I measured about 20mm under the 1st string (down to the top) just in front of the bridge.

I'd thought that I could measure there, tweak the trussrod and then lower the saddle to keep the action at the 12th fret (approx.) the same, but I couldn't measure reliably enough for the tiny amount of relief I added

[garybaldy]

Yeah, I think I measured about 20mm under the 1st string (down to the top) just in front of the bridge.

I'd thought that I could measure there, tweak the trussrod and then lower the saddle to keep the action at the 12th fret (approx.) the same, but I couldn't measure reliably enough for the tiny amount of relief I added

As it happens my bridge on the high e is less less 20mm but more than 19! Action is 1.7mm. So not too bad.

[RJVB]

My action is certainly more than that, so if your action at the nut is OK to there doesn't seem to be much reason for a neck reset!

[garybaldy]

My action is certainly more than that, so if your action at the nut is OK to there doesn't seem to be much reason for a neck reset!

Having read a lot about neck angle issues on Loar guitars prior to my getting the 700 and the fact there is very little scope to lower the bridge (on mine), I've had it in my mind, for some reason, that I'd be happier with a bridge height of around 25mm. I guess, though, there really is no logic to that. One wonders if the tone would improve. It could be worse! I am really pleased with the sound as is especially with Monel 13s but I have nothing to compare it with.
I think the neck reset idea will go on hold for now and some would say it's not worth doing on a Loar. BTW the nut height is good.

[RJVB]

One wonders if the tone would improve. It could be worse! I am really pleased with the sound as is especially with Monel 13s but I have nothing to compare it with.

Idem; I got it into my head that the saddle lean (I thought I) observed couldn't be good for the tone, plus the slots were all quite deep to my taste (except for the 6th where the saddle had been filed down around the slot so now the string is too easy to pluck out of place when "I go theorbo" on it). Aside from the occasional saddle buzz because of those abused slots the tone was almost perfect, but having no comparison I launched into a quest for new saddle...

There's still some buzzing, even with the bone saddle, on the lowest 2 strings when I play loud notes with a thumb rest stroke (now mostly the A string, curiously) - but I'm also getting that on my nylon stringers when I attack them the same way so maybe it's just part of the sound that I appreciate so much as a listener.

But I'm glad the saddle is not higher than it already is. I can't speak for "folk position" but in classical position it must become rather awkward to have a high saddle on top of an arch, while your arm is resting on a considerably "lower" rim. As it is I can attach an Armadillo armrest such that the resting point of my arm is almost level with the base of the bridge, and I only need to lift my forearm minimally. It feels like any configuration where I'd have to lift more would lead to tennis elbow or something of the sort.

[RJVB]

I'm a bit p'ed at myself for getting the slots of the 2nd and 3rd strings not exactly in the right position (I think I'll have to close the 2 [!] for the B string and make a new one right in the middle between them ) and still not managing entirely buzz-free slots for the 5th and 6th string. But as I said before (or elsewhere), maybe that's almost impossible. And I am really beginning to appreciate the new sound. The trebles may have become a little too powerful but I noticed that I got a growling quality out of the guitar that I usually only hear with nylon stringers.