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Saw this Reverb listing for an Eastman 805: Eastman AR805CE Archtop Guitar, Natural | Reverb
It has a great natural finish that is unfortunately marred by checking everywhere. Wondering how feasible it is to bring something like this to a luthier and ask them to fix this amount of checking on a finish? I've read that the nitro can be "reflowed" but I'm not sure how realistic this is.
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01-15-2024 05:06 PM
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I'm not a luthier so I shouldn't be chiming in. There seems to be two-and-a-half schools about refinishing. I think it should be standard practice for checked nitro. Any luthier can do it. Even I managed to make a 1945 Levin archtop look a lot better by brushing on a coat of heavily (apx 80%) thinned cellulose dope. I used a fine brush made of (European) squirrel's hair, similar to what I used decades ago for finishing speed and team race model airplanes. The second school says no-no, the guitar loses value from refinishing. This obviously concerns collector-grade instruments, but who can predict the status of a top-of-the-line Eastman in 2060? Some purists allow an early refinish by the original luthier, but this is not feasible for an instrument made in an overseas factory.
This just to get the ball rolling. Let's hear what experts have to say.
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If I liked the guitar and thought the price was fair, I would just play it and not worry about some finish imperfections.
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It's hard to tell from those photos, but all those cracks look more like shock trauma to me. They're on the neck, back, and top. Maybe just finish checking, but I can't really tell for sure. Long relatively straight lines like that make me suspicious.
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It is a $1600 guitar that is replaceable I would never go to the bother of refinishing it that would cost too much. A nitro refinish would be costly and probably not making it better if touch up was done. Personally, if it was mine, I might consider it a project and refinish it myself in natural nitro of course.
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Mmmmm. First. It's REALLY hard to make a diagnosis without any kind of history so there's a lot of funkiness that can run the gamut of explanations from "meh, don't worry" to "Jeez! Poor thing! I feel bad for whoever gets burdened with that."
We've got very pervasive perpendicular crazing, NOT following the grain lines or natural nodal patterns of a played guitar. So it wasn't in the course of normal use and play that that crazing occured.
Meh: That's Eastman ultra brittle lacquer. Could've been kept in the cold and the guitar contracted differently from the finish.
Jeez: There was an in case trauma and for one very intense moment, the entire guitar body, neck, top and body was flexed and micro folded like a professional wrestler across a knee. With that kind of force goes all sorts of shock into joins and other grain lines. Brace glue lines, Brace grain lines. Points of stress differential like neck join and headstock join that fight the force of the strings anyway.
There's a concentrated amount smaller crazing around the edges and end block.
Meh: That's natural, guitars move a lot along those areas, top moves, edges and blocks hold it still; it's gonna fight the flex. Crazing happens.
Jeez: The top was compressed, squashed the moment the guitar slammed against the case and the bridge focused the compression on the top; the edges gave way and the finish gave way...for a moment.
A lot of other suspicious crazing, neck, and an absence of photos showing the area beneath the nut.
So maybe it's Eastman's eggshell lacquer. Maybe it's a forensic story of a trauma that creates a loss of body integrity where no problems should ever be.
No story by the owner? It's a mystery.
Mysterious guitar with lots of micro cracks and crazing?
Up to you.
Oh yeah, you can get rid of the superficial crazing evidence easy enough, lacquer retarder works like a charm.
Other issues?
I wouldn't, personally.
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I did message the seller and he said "Just a natural occurrence that happens over time with temperature changes...The previous owner may have lived in different climates at some point." if that helps at all.
I have seen other guitars with lots of finish checking like this and always wondered if it was able to be buffed out.
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Finish checking can't be buffed out but unless its literally flaking off there's zero reason for concern.
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I do serious damage repair for a living. I've seen ALL sorts of telltale finish crazing.
Originally Posted by chris32895
Damage of this type, in this configuration, lateral stress cracking and radiating torsional finish cracks only occur one way. It's not humidity. It's not environmental.
That's all I'll say.
Good luck with it. I hope you're happy with what ever you decide.
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Yes, those finish cracks are typically what can happen if a guitar falls on or has some other shock to the neck.
But I don’t see evidence of cracked wood, so it could have flexed just enough to crack the finish. I have a guitar like that (fell off the stand!) and structurally it is fine.
I wouldn’t take a chance on that Eastman, unless it could be returned.
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The magic word there is "could". Unfortunately, there's no practical way to know if thre's hidden damage to the wood, so the big question is how likely it is to be there. In the investment world, there's a "risk premium", which is the potential profit to be made from buying an investment above the "risk free rate" that could be gotten from a guaranteed alternative. In other words, investors have to be offered a higher return on risky investments than on safer ones, or they woudn't take the risk. This is the equivalent of a discount from market price of this guitar based on the risk that it will subsequently fail. Originally Posted by Gilpy
This kind of damage could probably be sought with ultrasound or some other nondestructive imaging modality. It may even be possible to do spectral analysis of each open string to see if there are spurious frequencies. But I don't know of any currently used standardized test to check for hidden flaws / voids / etc in a guitar's structure. This has always fascinated me, and I may yet try to come up with something.
How could it fail? It could be less resistant to surviving a second blow, breaking more easily than it should. An internal flaw in the wood could propogate and cause strange resonances, buzzes, etc or even cause the neck to twist or bend. Etc etc. So the price has to be low enough to justify the risk to the buyer. Each of us has his own risk tolerance, so the size of that discount varies from buyer to buyer. If the guitar stays together fine, it was a bargain. If it fails, it was not a surprise.
"You pays your money and you takes your chances."
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some people pay extra for finish checking.
If that headstock said Collings instead of Eastman you could charge a pretty penny for the wear and tear.
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Lol I'm probably not gonna buy this but it's a real shame as a the natural finish is otherwise very nice and I'm even looking for a blonde Eastman at the moment. To be worth the risk it'd have to be way cheaper.
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what's the risk? Originally Posted by chris32895
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No one answered your question of if it can be repaired. As Ive seen this on many guitars Ive been interested in Ive asked the same question many times (even here once). The consensus from all of them was either live with it as its common on many guitars (including DA's and old and new Gibsons etc.) or refinish which requires removing all the old finish. Some light checking can be repaired "reflowing some reduced laquer". Im just repeating what I was told. I have a gorgeous guitar with similar level of checking Id love to have disappear but conversations with top luthiers have said if it was theirs they'd leave it. It would also be expensive. As I shot a ton of nitro in the cabinet world I figured it was something I could figure out then and do myself (i was wrong). After quite a bit of considering Im leaving it. One mans experience... Jimmy B note has experience and says its not environmental, at the same time I was told the opposite by equally credible luthiers. No offense meant in any way to JBN nor am I inferring hes wrong, I couldnt know. I guess the lesson for me was that even when I got to the point of deciding it was worth the money and finding someone I was confident could make it perfect it really wasnt going to improve my playing experience or my enjoyment of the guitar in any way. Im never planning on selling it so it would just be better for staring at.
however if ya do come up with a way...
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The question can’t be answered from the pictures. Those are stress cracks, not finish checking. The guitar was dropped or smashed enough to damage the finish and maybe more. Originally Posted by Rickco
Add to that, refinishing a guitar is at least a $500 job. So that takes the cost of this up to $2,100. Which is high for a guitar that might structurally fail.
At least, that’s how I understand the thread.
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"The question can’t be answered from the pictures. Those are stress cracks, not finish checking. "
As I pointed out several luthiers (including some members here) disagree and have pointed out far more extreme checking on several guitars caused by "environmental changes". I have no way of knowing, since "the question cant be answered from the pictures" either would anyone else.
What I am sure of is I own and have played several guitars with similar checking that I know have no structural damage or causes from impact stress. To go a step further 2 of these instruments were highly sought after collectable instruments shown to me by collectors who would not consider a refinish and added that the "spider"(their words) checking in no way effected the playability or sound of the instrument. Once again Im just repeating what Ive been told by luthiers of high repute.
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As far as I know, Jimmy Blue Note is the only luthier to respond here. Go ahead and reread his comments above. They do not disagree with my assessment, they are the basis of my assessment.
Sogsnell, Gilphy and nevershouldhavesoldit also think this guitar is a pass because of unknown damage.
Wintermoon and omphalopsychosaren't even talking about this guitar, they are just talking about checking in general.
ThatRhythmMan isn't talking about this, guitar, or checking in general. Just in practice if they play a guitar and like it, they like it.
So Rickco, are you talking about OP's guitar, or some random guitar with checking? Or just letting me know that in some cases, some luthiers will say some finish checking isn't a problem?
I feel like Ragman....
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This is "checking" inspected by several top luthiers, the seller J Wolfe and a top manufacturer who I will not drag into the conversation. This was not impact damage and the guitar is solid in every aspect as well as being darn near forensically inspected. My point was simply that you cant tell from a picture. After receiving this instrument from J I had his diagnosis confirmed by highly regarded experts and shown examples of the same thing on nearly priceless guitars that were case kept and never damaged. Any statement as to the cause of the checking on the OPs guitar in question is pure speculation, Id also like to add that if a proper refin could be done for $500. Id like to sign up.
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Again, this one is a classic example of the balance between price and risk. Those finish breaks are all roughly parallel to each other and run generally perpendicular to the long axis of the instrument. They're almost everywhere but much more widely spaced than typical finish checking as occurs from exposure to sudden temp changes etc. That kind of marking suggests to me that it may well have been dropped on either end, probably while in the case since there's apparently no evident damage at the endpin area or the top of the headstock. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the guitar itself. If Wintermoon is correct (and he may well be), it's a fine player and a great buy at the right price. But there's no way to tell if there's occult damage if you don't see, hear or feel anything amiss. The answer to Wintermoon's question "What's the risk?" is that if there's hidden damage, the guitar won't be as resistant to the next blow. If dropped or knocked gently enough not to cause a problem in a completely intact guitar, this one could end up with a broken or detached brace or even a major crack or separation somewhere.
The big question is how likely that guitar is to have suffered structural damage. Based on 65 years of experience with archtops (some of which came to me with hidden damage that I should have spotted), I'm guessing that the risk with this one is medium (in the range around 50:50) if bought sight unseen. If it's not making weird noises when played / twisted / shaken / stirred / whipped /chopped / pureed, the neck is flat & straight and adjusts properly, and careful inspection inside and out reveals no evidence of seam separations, loose or missing pieces of wood, internal repairs etc, the physical risk is lower. But it's still going to be hard to resell and the next purchaser could end up owning it forever or having to sell it at a major loss. This is a financial risk.
So as I said before, if you like it you pays your money and you takes your chances. The more info you can get about it, the lower the risk is that you'd end up with a disaster if you buy it. And again, it may be perfectly fine. But there are other guitars just like it out there (minus the finish damage) that are much more likely to be fine. Admittedly, a blond Eastman archtop is uncommon and pretty. But if it needs major repair, that cost would far exceed its market value. It's an Eastman, not a Grimes.
Absolutely! You're 100% right. Buying that guitar sight unseen and without any inspection at all would be a risky proposition. You got the information you needed to lower the risk, and that's how it's done. But I wouldn't bother with an Eastman in similar condition unless the price were so low that it didn't impact my ability to buy a better one later without having to sell the bad one. It's never going to look any better than it does now, and refinishing it would be a tragic waste of $. And I truly love both of my Eastman archtops. Originally Posted by Rickco
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I get you now. Yeah, it's impossible to tell the extent of the issue from pictures, it could be fine, or it could be really bad. Your guitar has been checked and it's fine. The one OP asked about, nobody has looked at it.... who knows.
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