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Greetings All,
I'm soliciting advice from everyone. I have a 2014 (roughly) Epiphone ES 175 Premium in Natural. The back of the neck by the pocket is checking pretty good, and the finish is actually flaking off. There's now a bare spot about the size of a quarter. Unless I take some kind of action, it's going to continue to flake off, and alas the bare spot is going to grow exponentially.
Also, this particular intrument is a "Second." It's got "Second" stamped on the back of the headstock. Additionally, these Premiums had holes drilled for the bridge adjustment poles to stick into the body-for tuning stability. However, this guitar instantly became a "Second" when a factory noob misdrilled the holes. The end result is that the strings are angled across the bridge from the tailpiece because the Factory Noob misdrilled the poles holes. Simple kind of a fix: just let the bridge rest on the surface of the guitar like most other arch top jazz boxes. I would like to fix that too though. Fill in the holes and redrill them straight.
Would anyone else refinish the entire guitar or spot fix it or otherwise?
I'm not sure what to do. Purists would say, "Are you crazy refinishing a guitar like that??" Well, it's not like it's a 59' ES, so should that be a concern?
IMHO, it's an Epi made in Korea, and they likely did not use the best finish products anyway, so why not?
I could use some guidance. My thought is that I'd like to get it redone.Last edited by Axel5150; 08-31-2023 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Add photos
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08-30-2023 03:12 PM
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Do you know what the finish is or have you run the tests. Refinishing nitrocellulose lacquer is relatively straightforward, if it one of the catalyzed polys it can be quite difficult. Without seeing photos of the damage and the holes its pretty hard to comment. I'm assuming if its a 175 copy the back and sides and neck are probably mahogany, that will require pore filling. Color changes obviously adds to the process.
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Hello,
I have not performed any tests. I just purchased this guitar about a month ago. The back of the neck by the pocket is checking pretty good, and it is there that the finish is checking and actually flaking off. I'll grab some photos at lunch time and post them here with my reply. Personally, I'd like to refinish the entire guitar and do the job that should have been done at the factory. I also want to fix the screw-ups that made this a "Second." I'll post some photos so I can get some good advice from all you good folks here. Thanks everyone for your help.
Craig
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These have a nitrocellulose finish, so it should be repairable, but I have no skill in this area and couldn't say more than that.
Originally Posted by Axel5150
If it were me, I'd just unscrew the pins from the bridge base enough to keep them from poking the guitar top, and let the bridge rest on the top. I don't think pinning the bridge serves any real purpose. If the holes are covered by the bridge, I'd leave them alone, If they show, I might try to fill them, but I suspect a repair won't look any better than the small holes. Originally Posted by Axel5150
I don't think purism applies; there's nothing wrong with fixing the finish because there's no vintage $ value in it to worry about. I'd say at least try to spot repair the finish, or maybe re-spray the whole thing if it's not too costly. But these are not very expensive guitars, and I think it would make more sense to just buy one on better condition than to sink a lot of money into stripping it back to bare wood and doing a full-on refinish. Originally Posted by Axel5150
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Craig, in general I advise against trying to refinish a guitar. Most of the time it comes out worse, so unless its really bad I don't recommend it. Finishing a guitar is one of the hardest parts about building, and refinishing just ups the challenges.,
For reference, I am an amateur builder and have finished all my guitars (30 total). I use nothing but lacquer, it is by far the the easiest of the finishes other than some of the wipe on stuff. After 30 guitars I'm starting to feel pretty good about my finishes, here is the last one I did
I have refinished two of my builds - I wasn't happy with the first go around so I stripped to bare wood and started over. On one the color hadn't come out quite correct, on the other the finish had blushed (my fault).
To do it right you will remove the pups and all the electronics (thru the f-holes), all the hardware. Ideally I finish the neck off the guitar, you won't have that option. Mask the fretboard and any decals and strip the old finish. Lacquer comes off easily, most of the modern finishes don't. Use caution around binding and headstock inlays. Deal with your bridge holes - matching wood grain is difficult when plugging holes.
Now it's just a matter of finishing just like any other guitar - pore fill, stains, sealers, any color, clear, sand, buff. Reassemble everything you took off, do a setup and bingo!
Its also a dilemma on trying to do a partial refinish where it flaking off. Again, lacquer is fairly easy because it melts into the old stuff, poly doesn't. Which is why I asked if you had done the test - most modern guitars (and PacRim) will be some sort of catalyzed finish. I do my best when faced with them but make no promises.
If the guitar has any significant value a refinish almost always cuts into that, on a vintage instrument it is pretty much a complete no no.
So, I would like to see the pictures but I think you should seriously consider your capabilities and expectations.
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You could try heating the finish up with a hot air gun or hair dryer. Don’t stay too long in one spot and have a putty knife on hand to help peel off the finish.
If Nitro you could place kitchen towel on the back (for example) and squirt acetone on it. The saturated towels will melt the finish and you can wipe it off.
It might have a nitro top coat but most likely the base coat is poly.
Check out different methods online.
Nitromors might be better if you’re worried about heat.
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That sounds like a poly "flake off". It happens when the finish doesn't have a great bond with the wood. I've seen it a bit and though it's tempting to remove it and refinish it, I've found that to be challenging because you're talking the WHOLE guitar, not just the afflicted area. When it comes to removing the finish from the areas where the finish HAS bonded, it's tough to remove. Really tough. And with poly, there's no chemical way to break down the finish. That tenacious finish will be very difficult to move mechanically (scraping, sanding, heating it 'til it blisters) because there's relatively very soft wood adjacent to it and that's going to come off (get sanded away) a lot faster than the finished area.
THe key is to move the finish quickly and evenly without taking the wood away. This is tough with poly.
Where's it's coming off, it's easy to chip and peel it, but elsewhere where it's bonded properly, it will get really sloppy. You can very quickly wind up with an "island" of poly surrounded by gaps and gouges of wood where the wood disappeared while the poly did its job of protecting.
It's not a job for the faint hearted or the impatient. IMHO
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He says it's a natural finish, so would there even be a base coat? Wouldn't there just be top coat(s) of clear coat? (asking out of curiosity and ignorance). Originally Posted by Archie
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The acetone test is pretty easy to do if you are not sure if the finish is poly or nitro. Even a tiny drop of acetone instantly leaves a permanent rough spot on nitro whereas you can submerge poly finished guitar in acetone for days, it won't do anything. Since the finish is already damaged, it should be easy to find a safe area to do the test.
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I would not spend time or money to do this. Play guitar as it is or sell it and put money toward a Gibson 175. In the end that will be the biggest win.
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Hello ?
I did exactly that: just unscrewed the pins enough so the saddle sits flush. Now, the finish needs attention. I have given a lot of thought to the cost of fixing Everything, as my ocd cannot rest until I’ve addressed this details in some way. I’m going to get some quotes for the refinishing just for my peace of mind. I’m not going to shell out another $800 for an Epi 175, although I just saw a red finish model I dig quite a bit. I’m going to save up for an L5, maybe a super 400, so I don’t want to go nuts with the epi 175’s, but I do think ? a refinish will at least give this one a better look and feel.
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So, that’s the spot. My hand does catch it a bit when I’m gettin’ busy in the upper registers, but not too much. Enough to cause the flaking, though. I was gonna put something over the effected area to stop the flaking, but tape is meh, and I thought maybe just hit that bald spot with, as you suggested, maybe some lacquer just to cover it and stop the rest from flaking, but I dunno ????.
by the way, your latest guitar finish looks awesome!!
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I would guess that is some sort of poly, the lacquer thinner test will confirm. Pull a tuner off and put a drop of lacquer thinner/nail polish remover/acetone on the foot print of the tuner. If the finish softens its lacquer, if not poly. The only way I know to remove poly is either with abrasives (sanding) or a heat gun and scrapers. The top, back and sides of your guitar are laminates and the veneer is pretty thin, you could easily sand thru.
If it was my guitar I would pull the neck (I assume its a normal dovetail put together with normal glues) and strip the finish as best I could from the entire neck, sanding where necessary. All the way to bare wood. I would not strip the body, plug your holes and float the bridge. I would refinish the neck with lacquer because that is what I am used to but there are other options, lots of folks use a gun stock finish called TruOil. The fact that your finish has an amber tint complicates things slightly, I can tint lacquer but don't know about other finishes.
It might also be possible to sand the finish more or less smooth on the the heel and apply a couple of coats of shellac. I would be worried that it would continue to chip away.
Guess the guitar was a Second for several reasons
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That certainly looks like poly. I've never seen nitro flake off looking like that. I would just flake off whatever is loose, use sandpaper to smooth things out, and use Tru-Oil on the bare spots. Posters above are right, that refinishing a poly finish is an exercise in futility. I understand wanting to fix that spot, and getting rid of the loose flakes, but the rest won't be easy, and a professional will probably charge more than the guitar is worth new. If you get a cheap quote, look out, because anyone who would do a complete refinish of poly on the cheap either doesn't know what he's doing or doesn't care. A huge amount of delicate work is required to get it done, and it will take many tens of hours to do right. Flake off the loose bits, sand it smooth, and put Tru-Oil on using many very thin coats. It will still be ugly, but it will be playable and stable.
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So just the neck? I wouldn't try to refinish the whole guitar, especially if it is poly. That stuff is near impossible to sand off. But you could do the neck. Re-applying an oil finish on the neck (like TruOil) is easy and leaves you with a nice satin feel. It will take forever and a half getting the finish off the neck, but it's at least something a person could do with some patience. Tape off the body, peel off as much as you can, and get to work with some 80 grit. You won't have a factory standard guitar, but this is a Chinese Epiphone not a collectors item.
One piece of advice, though. Sanding is tedious work that you will be tempted to rush. Absolutely resist rushing or skipping grits. Get every little bit off until you have raw wood. When you think you have it, give it another 10 minutes of sanding. Then, and only then, start working your way through the grits to at least 320. If it is poly, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up spending a couple of hours just sanding the neck.
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For a neck, a burred edge cabinet scraper cuts poly but once you reach wood it'll cut wood a lot faster. It takes a little thumb control and I do need to follow with sand paper but it's my SOP when it comes to necks.
When I worked for Ibanez, I saw this kind of finish lifting (all their guitars were poly) and aside from grounds for instant rejection (damage like this spreads uncontrollably and unpredictably) there was no real easy fix for it. It's also a telltale for trauma damage because poly will stay in one piece like ice on a car hood but once it encounters a knock sufficient to separate it, it'll send out cracks and splits along the poly.
If you took a guitar off the seconds stacks with this kind of damage, you knew you had a lot of work ahead.
Here's an elephant in the room issue: Could this kind of finish separation been initiated by a knock to the neck at some point? If so, you have a bigger problem. Heel finish separation and minute checks beneath the nut are the warning signs that the poly has separated due to forced separation. There may have been a serious knock (case drop is a big one) and the wonky finish is merely an indication of other issues. I see checking on the body finish on the close up photos that I don't like at all. I think this guitar has been dropped and the shock transmitted and leveraged to the heel. That's my serious professional and experienced opinion. Whether the geometry and joins are sound...that's not for me to say.
Another thing to consider, once you DO remove a thick layer of poly from a neck, you will change the feel of the neck, especially since to remove ONLY the poly and not remove wood is nearly impossible. A change in neck thickness, no matter how small, can be felt (ask any luthier who'd felt a neck go from perfect to DANG! without even realizing it), and in the brute force needed to dig in to remove the poly, things can change.
Poly protects like the devil and it's the devil's work to try to re-work once it's on there.
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Dude, you nailed it. There's a good ding at the A string tuner on top of the headstock. Yup, sure enough that looks like it caused the checking. I didn't think about that until you wrote that. When I bought this I didn't connect the two, but sure enough I think you are correct. So, what do I do? Do I take off the neck and have it all gone through, fixed? I want to just because I don't like leaving things like this. Too OCD to not address it. I'm not too worried about changing the tone. I'd rather fix this. Now, I need to find someone who can. I don't have the time to do this myself. I work too many hours. Maybe I'll have to make this a project guitar and just get another epi 175 without so much work needed. I'll think about this over the weekend. Thank you for your insight. Really appreciate it. Everyone here, thank you all.
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This is my last post on the subject. The neck does not need to come off and if it did to refinish the neck and put it back on I would charge at least $1300. This would not include anything else it needed. If you work many hours, please find help for your ODC and simply sell this guitar cheap. Then buy another one because of the ODC, as it stands the guitar plays now. This to me comes close to the most ridicules repair on a guitar that can be done. It is not a vintage guitar and never will be, it is not worth much money even if was in perfect condition. It is not a bad guitar by any means but it just the simple facts.
The fact that you work all the time is why I don't want you to do this because you are throwing money away. Your hard work deserves something with a better return. Google GIbson 175 for sale and proceed. Sell this guitar on ebay with full discloser it is worth maybe about $800 with no issue. Sell this for $400 and be done with it.
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Hoo boy. I'm sorry to hear that. I was afraid of that.
Trouble is, you don't know HOW bad the damage is at this point. Glue join separation is a real possibility. Even grain split somewhere internally.
Were it mine, I've got the tools and the knowhow so I'd take it in and re-do the whole shebang, finish, remove the neck, replace all the hardware, throw in a Duncan Antiquities, and go for the challenge of making a Corolla that could out-do a Ferrari... but that's just my masochistic streak that got me into the business in the first place.
Make it into a project to learn about making uber-tars. You'll get something out of it for sure.
Don't pour too much money into it. I like the idea of pulling the neck and making it a nitro neck. You need to weigh the obsession vs the time. Only you know the mix that results in satisfaction.
Yeah, there's a wide range of seconds, from cloudy headstock finish to integrity compromised structural damage. I think yours is more towards the latter. I salute you for wanting to save this puppy.
Let us know what you decide.
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Heh, deacon, I'm in your corner on this one. Some of my worse times in my life as a luthier have been the jobs that came to me by customers who were caught up with fantasies about the guitar they wanted me to do dark voodoo on. I'd fix it, their wallets look at the price, they can't understand WHY and they blame me for not delivering on this dream they had. (The work was good, by the way). Originally Posted by deacon Mark
I do this stuff for myself because I can. I don't do these things for customers anymore. I've learned to say " [...] can do this faster, he'd LOVE a call from you".
Fantasy...outside the boundries of reason.
Labour of love... outside the boundries of reasonable business common sense.
Over an Epi?... SOMEBODY is gonna be kicking themselves, don't know who but it'll be somebody. Mark my words.
I think that's the last thing I'll say too.
Best of luck!
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Deacon’s post sounds harsh but it’s a dose of good advice. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
If you were wanting to get into guitar restoration, this would be a good ‘learning on the job’ experience but since you’re not doing that, just sell it, bin it or keep it.
Sounds like you can’t do the later, so you have two other choices.
If you don’t want to bin it, then you have 1 choice.
A classic Franklin close. Job done!
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Yup, agree with everything you wrote. I’m gonna play it and let the flaking do as it will. Then, when it’s fallen off, I’ll get to work sanding, as others have suggested, starting at 80g and working my way through 320g, then I’ll do a trueoil finish, lightly sanding after each of what will be about 3 to 4 nice coats, finishing with a 1k grit, nice a smooth… I built a mahogany super strat with one Seymour Duncan JB, original Floyd rose, and a hockey stick 12-16 radius 22 fret neck with a trueoil finish. I’m also eyeing a 2016, 59’ ES 175. That’ll be my “home” player. That’s the long term plan. I got beat up on this epi 175 because of the headstock “bang” that caused the checking in the heal to start peeling and flaking. Expensive lesson learned buying a used guitar. I really wanted an epi 175 premium in natural, and I should have waited for a better one. I’m over being mad at myself for getting beat up on this purchase. I’m still learning these lessons at my age. SMH and smiling. Thank you all so much for your help and guidance. I’ll stay in touch in here with my new Jazz Guitar friends, though. Nice group of people in here.
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