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I have an Eastman AR810CE that I put 13s on and am getting some fret buzz. I would like to get it set up for 13s and have some sharp frets taken care of.
Is there a difference between this work on an archtop vs a solid body guitar? I have a local shop I always take my guitars to, but not sure if I should go to a luthier instead? (This is my first archtop and I’m in unknown territory)
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08-24-2023 10:15 AM
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Frets are frets, if the shop has a good tech they can handle it. But sharp frets aren't going to cause fret buzz....
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regarding the fret buzz, I was more thinking it was truss rod adjustment. The guitar cam with 11s on it, I changed them to 13’s. Guessing now it needs set up for 13s.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Doing a setup is not rocket science. It's easy enough to do, whatever the body style or size. You appear to have a couple of separate issues, and neither is hard to take care of. Sharp fret ends can easily be taken care of in 5 minutes or less. Fret buzz can have multiple causes, and it's not possible to say which is involved with your guitar without having it in hand. If it's a truss rod issue, that can be checked by fretting the strings at the first and 12th frets, or wherever the neck joins the body. That makes the string a straight line along the neck, and there should be only a slight amount of space between the bottom of the string and the fret at the halfway point, probably the 7th fret. Too much relief causes higher action to be required without buzzing on the higher frets. Going to heavier strings could certainly cause too much relief, depending on how much there was originally. Truss rod adjustment is easy enough, provided you do it a little at a time, and feel the thread tightness as you go. If you're worried about doing it yourself, any competent tech should be able to take care of it in a few minutes. If the cause of the buzz is uneven frets, then it will take longer, probably a fret level and recrown, but a competent tech can still handle that.
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In my humble opinion someone who is going to work on a given guitar needs to have a fair amount of experience with that genre of instrument. Setting up a solid body electric guitar follows the same steps as an archtop but there are some differences, and I would hope that the person doing the work knows how to evaluate the instrument before starting work, and knows the procedure for what needs to be done.
You have two different issues - the sharp fret ends are a result of the guitar being dry. Rehydrating the guitar will not fix the sprout, you need to have them filed and dressed. If your guitar has a bound neck that slightly complicates the process, a good tech will know how.
If the frets are sharp I assume there will be other symptoms of dryness, and one is that the dome of the top can drop down, resulting in lower action and buzzy frets. In addition, going to heavier strings will increase the down force a the bridge, deflecting the top more, and further lowering the action. Heavier strings will pull more relief into the neck, a good tech/luthier will know how to evaluate the geometry and correct this if necessary. I make it a point to never work on a dry guitar until it has been rehydrated and is stable.
Once the guitar is stable with respect to humidity you can evaluate the other things - condition of the frets, neck angle, relief, nut action, 12th fret action and intonation. They are interrelated and there is a sequence to approach and correct them.
What you call someone really doesn't matter here, it's what he or she knows and how they approach your guitar.
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If it didn’t buzz with the lighter strings but it does with a heavier set, it’s probably not fret buzz and the truss rod is not the cure. Heavier strings will raise action, not lower it. And thinner strings will vibrate over a wider path than thicker / higher tension strings. Freeman Keller's hypothesis that the instrument could be dehydrated to the point that the top has sunk a bit from the heavier strings is certainly possible. But I don't think it's at all likely that it's sufficiently dry for top depression to have exceeded the offsetting increase in action height from a minor increase in string tension going from an 11-47 set to a 13-53 set. Originally Posted by jeremiahzellers
As I’ve said here before, you need to diagnose correctly before you can treat effectively. Do you hear the buzz on all strings and all frets, or is it specific frets and/or specific string(s)? Is it present no matter how hard you pick or does it come on with more force? Is it the same with the guitar in any position including vertical and upside down, or is it positional?
It could be an issue with the nut, bridge, tailpiece etc. A string that's too large for the slot could be sitting on the slot's edges. I've heard of Eastman tailpieces with too little clearance for the ball ends, so that the ball is wedged between the top and bottom of the curled metal strip inside the wood and the string is not fully seated against the inside front surface. I had this problem with the 7th string on my 810CE7. Unless you’re confident that you can identify and deal with any of these and more, I’d let a tech or luthier check it out.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 08-24-2023 at 02:27 PM.
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I want to clarify two things from my previous post. With a flat topped acoustic guitar there is a slight dome built into the tops. That goes away as the top dries out, the top will flatten and even crack. The action drops and can get buzzy.
I've only built a few archtops but I would assume the they do the same thing, as the guitar dries the wood shrinks and the top settles. Normally I wouldn't think of this but the sharp fret ends are a definite indicator of a dry guitar. When I see this on an flat top acoustic I always go thru the ritual of rehydrating it before I do any setup (I might shim the saddle temporarily so the guitar is playable).
Second comment, with a flat topped guitar (pinned or tied bridge) I do expect the additional string tension to pull the bridge up and rotate it forward, raising the action (along with whatever contribution the relief makes). With a floating bridge we have only down force perpendicular to the top. Depending on string gauge and break over angle you might have about 40 pounds of downforce. Heavier strings will increase that and can deflect the top a little more.
I ran RM Mottola's down force calculator for 155 pound (11's) and 175 pounds (13's) of tension and a 15 degree break angle, the numbers are 40 and 46 pounds. I don't expect to see much more top deflection, but on a guitar with a marginal setup just a little bit at the bridge can push you over.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, you should take it to a person who has experience with this kind of instrument and have them do a thorough evaluation before you do anything else. It might also be wise to throw the 11's back on and take all the measurements to see what is different.
Report back
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The higher tension of heavier strings will put more forward bow into the neck, raising the action, as well as the strings sitting higher in the nut and bridge slots, assuming the slots haven’t been adjusted. That will raise the action somewhat. A well braced archtop should show almost no drop in the bridge from the increased downforce in my experience. Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
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The way increased relief from heavier strings can cause buzz is if the action is already low, the buzz can occur on the higher frets, above the 12th. As the neck assumes more of a bow shape, the action gets lower over the higher frets and can start to buzz. This can be fixed by raising the action, but the action near the center of the neck gets higher, and perhaps too high for comfort. There should be no buzzes on the lower frets if this is the cause. It's not possible to say without actually holding and playing the instrument. Buzzes can also be caused by things other than the string hitting a fret, and those things are countless. Anything loose could start vibrating because of the heavier strings, or because of something else. I've even seen unrelated objects in the room start to vibrate, and sound as if they were coming from the guitar. Isolating buzzes and vibration can be an exhaustive and time-consuming process.
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Archtop guitars made of solid spruce should really never settle at all. They can and it happens but normally it is not supposed to do that. When the guitar is made the top and bridge/saddle are carved to conform to the top. If things settle is suggest problems, although they may not be particularly bad or make the guitar unplayable, but in the design of an archtop the top should remain stable and conform to the carve. This is completely different than a flattop and the whole way a flattop is made and excites the soundboard is completely different than an archtop.
Just another reason why I generally do not like flattop guitars and do not play them. They to me are limiting guitars in terms or setting up, playing, and ability to change even the sound.
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a flattop isn't an archtop and not supposed to be, truly apples and oranges.
but if you've ever played a great prewar Martin you'd probably be mighty impressed.
I never gave flattops a second thought but 30 years ago a friend came over and played his '37 000-28 in front of me while I sat on a sofa. just an incredible sound and the whole sofa vibrated--many years later somewhere in a landfill I bet it's still vibrating.
a more recent example was the 1941 D-28 Larry Wexer currently has in stock. I played it at a guitar show years ago and it's an amazing sounding guitar, every note on the fingerboard just pops.
this is a jazz guitar forum so archtops are the thing but a great flattop is a beautiful thing in it's own way.
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Having the wrong person work on your frets is a great way to render your guitar unplayable, so be careful who you trust your instruments with..
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I worked around 2 archtop jazz guitar makers. They never would have thought of themselves as guitar technicians. In fact, they did not so much think of themselves as luthiers but as guitar makers. Certainly, they were luthiers of the highest quality, but they wanted to build guitars and specially make fine sounding acoustic archtops that had sound. Setting up a Fender Strat of Tele is a very different operation than setting up a Gibson 175 or Super 400. The same principles apply but they way to get to the finished product, a nicely set up guitar, is a different process. Personally, setting an archtop requires to me much more advanced level of skill and tools. I would say that about flattops guitars to they certainly must be looked at differently than your standard Gibson Les Paul. Gibson Les Pauls BTW are a joy to work on comparted to Fenders to me.
We have I believe, only 1 really music store in town that can do set up and repairs. While I think they can get your Strat in order I would never entrust them to my Super 400. In fact, working on guitars of basically hobbyist players that are not all they committed to playing regularly is another thing entirely that a working professional or good experience player. It is difference between working on a bicycle that someone rides 3 or 4 times a month to get out and it is another thing in the garage: VS a cyclist who is riding 200-400 miles a week. They usually have different type bikes and a lot more knowledge of the bike.
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There's a certified Martin guy in my town that has built a few dozen flat-tops and does tons of set-ups for all types of players in the area. He's very well regarded and has a lengthy wait list. In fact, he recently stopped taking new work so he can get caught up. I can't prove it, but I keep thinking there's something not quite right about his understanding of the wood saddle, the depth of the notch, and the relationship to the fingerboard radius...
I know the basic principles are the same, but it seems to me this might be somehow different than most other types of guitars. There's at least 2 well regarded archtop builders within a couple of hours of me. I keep thinking about seeing if one of them might take a look some day.
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Luthier vs Technician ?
Luthier
: one who makes stringed musical instruments (such as violins or guitars).
Technician
: a specialist in the technical details of a subject or occupation
: one who has acquired the technique of an art or other area of specialization
Repairman
: one who repairs
specifically : one whose occupation is to make repairs in a mechanism
Musical Instrument
: a device (such as a violin, piano, or flute) used to make music
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A luthier who has acquired the technique of the art is also a technician by definition.
A luthier that makes repairs is also a repairman.
A person who has not acquired the technique of the art is not qualified, e.g.; a luthier specialized in making acoustic flat tops may not be qualified for repairing electric guitars.
Ambiguity
A device that is intended to be used to make music, but for whatever reason cannot be used to make music is still considered a musical instrument. For example; a broken guitar, a bad guitar or a guitar without strings is still advertised as a "guitar" even though its unfit for purpose.
A device that was made for the purpose of making music, but is used for some other purpose, is still considered a musical instrument. For example; A guitar acquired for the purpose of wall decoration is still a guitar regardless if it's playable or not. (But an object intended for interior design is not a musical instrument even though it may appear like a guitar. It could be viewed as an object of art, or just props.)
An electric guitar is a complex system involving different areas of specialization; fine carpentry, fine mechanics, electronics, physical acoustics, audio engineering and music theory. The likelihood of finding a person that qualifies as a specialist within all those fields is slim. Most of the time an electric guitar is a product of collaboration:
The carpenter makes a beautiful frame (that could be intended for making music or for wall decoration). If the device is intended for making music, the frame must then be completed with content. Enter the technician, or the team of technicians specialized in different areas.
When the guitar needs maintenance or repair we just call for the repairman, our hero.
"See how he uses a spanner to tighten the nut!"
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To me, the issue is being able to diagnose any problem the guitar might have (if there are no problems, anybody should be able to do a setup). The diagnosis should be completed before anything is done to the instrument that can't be reversed.
So, the issue is, which technician is most likely to be able to do that?
Depends on the individual. That said, in past years, I've taken guitars to both and have been happier with luthiers.
If you're not familiar with doing a setup, I'd recommend reading the Fender setup guide, free on their website. I don't know if the procedures apply to other types of guitars, but it gives a great presentation of at least some of the issues.
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If you want to learn about doing setups and other repair work for guitars other than Fenders, IMO the best site for this is Frank Ford's. He knows a thing or two about working on guitars.
FRETS.COM
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Also, I've never heard of this:
"I want to clarify two things from my previous post. With a flat topped acoustic guitar there is a slight dome built into the tops. That goes away as the top dries out, the top will flatten and even crack. The action drops and can get buzzy.
I've only built a few archtops but I would assume the they do the same thing, as the guitar dries the wood shrinks and the top settles."
I'm pretty sure Wood is typically dried to a stable state before it gets turned into guitar parts. At least this has been my understanding. Steve Andersen coached me on this point when I processed a 48" x 16' Acer macrophyllum log for backs, necks and rims.
If it isn't, the instrument will end up in the wood stove for kindling or junk.
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