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I don't use the tremolo on my strat. I sort of hardtailed by adding 2 more tremolo block springs and flushing the tremolo claw. The thing is tremolo block weights almost a pound (including springs and claw and screws). I know Eric Clapton prefers hardtailing this way because he thinks it preserves a springy strat quality. But I rather preserve a pound of weight.
So I'm thinking getting a small solid block of wood. Say 1/2 inch deep. 2inches to 2inches. And glueing it in the tremolo cavity. It won't need to fully cover it. It'll be stuck in the cavity flush against the head side, aligned under the the rectangular whole tremolo block normally resides. I'll put holes in it for springs. I might put Tele inserts to support the string balls if need be. The whole thing can be done in half an hour.
Would you recommend an alternative method? Would there be a tonal advantage of gluing the piece instead of screwing it?
EDIT: I noticed that "alternative method" isn't very clear. I don't mean alternative method to cut weight, but an alternative method to hardtail a Strat that allows removing the tremolo block.Last edited by Tal_175; 05-26-2018 at 07:25 AM.
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05-24-2018 11:42 AM
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As long as you get the screws tight and have nice wood surfaces between the block and cavity I would imagine it would sound just as good as if it were glued in. I have a hardtail Strat partscaster. It is a true hardtail though. You might want to look at the stock bodies that Warmoth offers. I found a light weight hardtail alder body already finished for my last iteration of this guitar. Kind of begs the question of whether this is still the same guitar since I changed the body. Another topic altogether.
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I don't expect it would sound good, but the one thing I can say about Strat variants after decades of fooling around with them, is predictions/generalizations don't 100% correlate with results.
That said, here's why I'm a naysayer on this.. Obviously sound transmission through the bridge is completely different on the trem vs hardtail. And IMHO, what you propose would compromise both designs in an effort to merge them.
Trem style has the bridge pivot against the 6 screws (vintage) or 2 posts (modern.) The block you would be swapping out effects the energy and resonance, but it is really there for mechanical reasons: to act as a lever for the counter balance springs, and to anchor the strings. The path into the body is via the pivot screws (or studs) and string / spring tension keeps the bridge pulled hard against those pivot points.
A fixed hardtail bridge is literally screwed to the body. You'd be replicating that with the glued-in wood block, but then what happens to the pivot screws (or studs)? The bridge then not getting pulled against them by strings & springs, so they lose effectiveness for transmitting sound, and are not really effective to help clamp the bridge to body. That turns those former pivot points into ineffective loose joints, which is not acoustically optimal. They'd dissipate energy this way, and you could even chase rattles. The hardtail attachment done this way, with the trem bridge plate screwed to a glued in wood block filling a small portion of the large cavity is not going to be much like a traditional solid body/fixed bridge strat.
I'm just being devil's advocate with this argument, and would not be completely surprised to hear it all worked great. I do think the trem cavity body works well together with the trem bridge, and am speculating that having that large cavity with a small glued block anchoring the bridge is too much of a compromise. Get another slab body to best anchor that bridge and you'd likely get more "good" out of the wood.
John
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Originally Posted by john_a
Originally Posted by john_a
I hear what you're saying about the importance of the transmission through the 2 tremolo posts. If you compare this with a block tremolo design where a wood piece and/or additional springs secure tremolo block in such a way that bridge is flush (my current set up). I think forces acting on the posts would be the same. Strings will go down from the saddles with the same angle as now. Instead of the metal block being secured with springs, the glued wood piece will be stopping the string balls. In other words, the bridge plate won't know the difference between whether the ball end of the springs are attached to the block or a glued wood piece.
Now there is a caveat, in the current design metal block is also directly attached to the bridge plate. But that's to enable the rocking motions with the whammy bar. In terms of pushing the plate against the posts, there shouldn't be a difference. I'll pay attention to this when I set it up. Worse comes to worse I can get a fixed bridge and screw it directly to the body I think.Last edited by Tal_175; 05-25-2018 at 06:15 AM.
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I once did the same thing as you described with a Floyd Rose that was driving me nuts. Just made a piece of hard wood custom size and stuck it in there. Sounded so much better and stayed in tune.
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Through the years, this is the main method every guitar tech/luthier I knew blocked the tremelo, meant to be quickly reversible. It usually involved a maple block.
I do it whenever I get the urge, it's so easy and effective. I mainly do it because when I do country style double stops with a bend, the bend moves the tremolo and detunes the pitch of the string not being bent.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by Frank67
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No need to solder, as long as there is reliable contact. Ground wires to archtop tailpieces aren't usually soldered, just laid underneath the tailpiece, and contact is maintained through pressure. The same can be done on a solidbody bridge.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
I think using the wood as you described in more detail is actually less able to secure the bridge -- you now have essentially a floating bridge weakly hitting against the two posts, without the full benifit of string & spring tension against what had been the pivots. That sound transmission path into the body is not going to be effective as either the original trem OR a hardtail, which was the position I took in my first reply.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
If you're set on this idea, and follow through with it, please let us know how it turned out. I've shared my opinion on this conversion idea, but it is speculation and I can't 100% say for sure what will happen. I do believe you missed how the bridge plate is held against the studs, and that's why I made this second reply to clarify the difference when you'd lose that full tension.
Even going to a hardtail bridge on a trem body just seems like too much compromise, if you did end up filling the cavity with solid wood and screwing a real hardtail bridge in place, there'd be cosmetic issues for covering the stud holes. Neither of these glued-in conversions are easily reversible, which is why I'd want to proceed with as complete an understanding as possible. If this was mine, I'd just replace the steel block with a lightweight material and block it the traditional way. You'd not lose as much weight, but it would likely not have such an adverse effect on the tone, and of course would be reversible.
I made a very lightweight hardtail Strat as my most recent solid body, spruce topped with polished titanium bridge plate & graph tech saddles. Lightness can be a good thing, but not all my favorite Strats are like that.
John
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An excellent alternative is to install a tremel-no. I installed one on my Charvel superstrat some years ago and am more than happy.
With small wheels you can set the tremel-no to :
- completely lock the tremelo
- leave it floating
- work in dive only (no raising pitch)
Works fine for me
<a data-cke-saved-href="https://youtu.be/xiZnipHc1ec" href="https://youtu.be/xiZnipHc1ec">
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Originally Posted by john_a
May be I haven't been able to describe the intended set up but important point to realize is that I am not comparing this design with the floating tremolo set up. I'm comparing this design with one like in the pictures of cosmic gumbo's post (post #6). Look at the string ball ends in that picture. In my set up, these string ball ends will be in the exactly the same position except they will be going through a wood block laying flat where the springs are. I simply do not see how the forces acting on the pivots from the bridge plate can be any different in my set up than the one in the picture. All bridge plate and saddles are concerned with is incoming string angle.
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Originally Posted by Ray175
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The additional weight is marginal - maybe a few ounces. Probably no heavier than adding one or two wood blocks to the existing setup.
To be honest I feel zero difference in weight when playing - though not my main guitar
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Originally Posted by Ray175
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
John
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Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding as to why tremolo blocks are made of dense metals is because dense metals reflect vibration more than other common materials. The objective is to decouple strings from the wonky tremolo springs as much as possible. Not 100%, of course there is some interaction with the springs which arguably contributes to the Stratocaster sound. But extend to which tremolo blocks achieve this goal, they increase the sustain. That's why some people upgrade them to bigger, denser blocks. More sustain.
The set up I described in the post pretty heavily relies on this understanding to be true. That is if I remove the springs, I don't need a metal block to be there, I can simply attach the strings to the body (indirectly) though a solid piece of wood (about the thickness of acoustic guitar bridge support pieces glued under the bridge or a bit more) and it'll be a sound solid body design.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
If I understand the arrangement you're thinking about correctly, blocks and springs go together, and you don't need either if the strings are anchored to the body. But because this system would be transmitting vibrations to the body differently from the standard system, it might sound different, and string tension might not be enough to hold the bridge firmly in place unless it's directly fastened to the body. I'm also having a tough time picturing the size and shape of wood block you're contemplating; whatever that is, it would have to be very well fastened to the body to withstand string tension.The only way to really know is to perform the experiment.
Overall, I'm not sure I get the purpose of the modification. Is it just to save weight? Or are you trying to get the sound and feel of a hardtail strat? Or are you just doing this for the sake of experiment? If it's just to save weight, I think there are simpler ways to do this (e.g., swapping in a lighter block). If it's because you want a hardtail, I think maybe you need to study a bit more to see if you're really replicating one. If it's for the sake of science and you don't mind the risk of messing up a perfectly OK guitar, have at it.
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
I think I already explained the answers to the other questions above (eg. why swapping with a lighter tremolo mechanism that I don't need is not a good idea for me).
Yes I want to save weight. No offense but based on the responses I think I have a firmer grasp of the physics of what I am doing. I wanted see if there was a specific feedback anybody has about this with a reasonably rigorous reasoning. I think it was a good discussion nevertheless. I am going to go ahead. If for some reason I am not happy with the result, I can unscrew the block and put back the tremolo. But I doubt it. Worse I'll get a fixed bridge.
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Originally Posted by John A.
The reasoning is that if it is true that metal block is there to isolate the springs for the most part, me attaching the strings to to body is sound. In fact, practically every other electric and acoustic guitar design is exactly that.Last edited by Tal_175; 05-25-2018 at 04:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
The point of my post is not to discuss why I want to cut weight or what other ways exist to cut weight, so the explanation given in OP should suffice.
Anyway sorry that my explanation wasn't clear enough for you. Thanks for your responses regardless.
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Originally Posted by John A.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
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