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I don't like to work with plastic but I like the look of it. So I have been using fiber or vulcanized cellulose in place of wood or plastic. The fiber is a little like wood but it is much tougher as it will not split or crack. It is also quite stiff and adds considerable strength when used as binding. There is one more thing I like about it. It bonds very well with hide glue. Here are some pictures of a W/B/W lay up of .090" on f - holes.
Last edited by Matt Cushman; 08-06-2016 at 09:48 AM.
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08-06-2016 09:36 AM
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Nice work, Matt! i've always been a fan of the basic traditional "f"- hole, and those pictured are elegant. I also like the idea of a little extra protection for the vulnerable and delicate surrounding the hole itself. Thanks!
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Is that this stuff?
Fiber Veneer Sheets
From your pic it looks like it holds a bend well. Is that without heat?
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fiber looks cool... but that spruce top is even better!!..nice match too.. hah
any long term info on that fiber?..how it reacts in time..& with finishes and glue etc etc...binding rot is a problem on lots of now vintage guitars
cheers
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Matt, that's a great idea. I use it all the time for the fine lines and never thought to use the thicker stuff for the outside. It's incredibly tough stuff once it's glued. My only beef with it is that if you're going to scrape it your scraper better be sharp otherwise it can leave a pretty ratty surface but if you're going to use a scraper it should be sharp anyway.
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Meant to answer in my last post. It's like a vulcanized paper and as far as I know has no solvents so it shouldn't have any shrinking problems. Again, it's made from wood/plant fiber and takes glue and finish as well or better than most woods. It's the same stuff that Fender has used for the tag boards in their amps from the earliest tweeds up to their switch to circuitboards. It's also what Gibson has used for their headstock veneers for decades.
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Thanks, everyone!
Nice work, Matt! i've always been a fan of the basic traditional "f"- hole, and those pictured are elegant. I also like the idea of a little extra protection for the vulnerable and delicate surrounding the hole itself.
JehuIs that this stuff?
Fiber Veneer Sheets
From your pic it looks like it holds a bend well. Is that without heat?
neatomicfiber looks cool... but that spruce top is even better!!..nice match too.. hah
any long term info on that fiber?..how it reacts in time..& with finishes and glue etc etc...binding rot is a problem on lots of now vintage guitars
cheers
jasoncMatt, that's a great idea. I use it all the time for the fine lines and never thought to use the thicker stuff for the outside. It's incredibly tough stuff once it's glued. My only beef with it is that if you're going to scrape it your scraper better be sharp otherwise it can leave a pretty ratty surface but if you're going to use a scraper it should be sharp anyway.
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Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
yes.. absolutely..which is why my favored shape..the cats eye..often results in cracks running from the sharp bottom point to the bottom of the guitar..such a shame...as it has a classic look
thanks for the good info!..per usual, mc
cheers
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I forgot to mention earlier that before gluing the fiber it must be sanded or scraped smooth. After the surfaces are smoothed there will be some loss of thickness that needs to be accounted for in the total laminated thickness. The gluing surfaces should be flat to get clean lines between the laminations. The fiber is supplied a little rough with a thin coat of protectant of some kind that is glue resistant and must be scraped or sanded off before you glue it.
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Thanks Matt, good to know. I may give that stuff a go on my next build. I don't really like working with the solvents needed for plastic, and wood is a pain when it comes to tight bends.
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FWIW, I have not had good luck with the fiber alone. When used as purfling with binding I had no problem. But alone when binding a sound port, they swelled noticeably and even bled a little making the white look dingy.
I was using Enduro-Var, which is water based. Perhaps sealing with schellac first would have been prudent, but after that mess I never tried a second one.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
I have fully bound at least 15 F-style mandolins and the headstocks on at least 10 guitars. The oldest mandolins with fiber go back to 2006 and I have never had a customer problem. One reason I like the fiber is it seems to improve the tone. I don't know why there would be any tone improvement but the mandolins bound with fiber have been among my best. I made a batch of 4 mandos. I bound 3 mandos in fiber and one in plastic and all the fiber bound mandos were louder than the plastic bound model. I know that is not a very scientific test but the difference was noticeable. Tone is always subjective and doing accurate comparisons is never easy. I plan on building a batch of 3 guitars next time so I may bind one in plastic just to see how they compare to each other.Last edited by Matt Cushman; 08-09-2016 at 09:54 AM.
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I have thought that binding around the F holes would create a stiffness (either from the plastic being stiffer than the wood, or with wood binding as the grain runs in a very different direction from that of the top, and is usually a different wood). That might affect tone and volume, if correct.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Thanks for that, this sort of thing is really interesting. It looks like you have built a false body to set the top on to work on it.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Here I have the assembled body sanded to 80 grit and ready for binding to match the F- holes. Unlike plastic, fiber is harder than the wood it is protecting. That is a good thing for protecting the guitar, but that can make for extra work when scraping the binding flush to the wood. Binding is usually scraped flush and fiber can be difficult to scrape. For this reason, a close fit is important to help to expedite the task.
It is easy to cut an accurate rabet with a small trim router mounted on a vertically sliding carriage. The router has a router bit with interchangeable bearings to guide the width of the rabet. The router is locked to a nylon shoe that rides on the top or back plate to determine the depth of the cut. It is a good idea to protect the ribs with a layer of tape before making the multiple passes around the guitar body.
Once the rabet is cut accurately, gluing in the binding is fairly straight forward, but time consuming as accuracy is a must. I combine pre laminated purfling strips that are supplied 64" long ( just short to go around a 17' archtop with one piece ) with strips of fiber that I cut myself using a balsa stripper with a #19 exacto blade. The thickest fiber sheet is supplied in a 33" length just exactly long enough to go around my 17" archtop with 2 pieces and none to spare. Fortunately, the other thicknesses of fiber are supplied with several inches to spare. The limited length of the outer binding means I cannot have the center seam meet exactly in the center at the tail of the guitar on the back. It is off by 1/16", close enough. I can hide the seam with a little white tamiya putty before finishing.
Fiber is much different than plastic and there is a learning curve with using it, but plastic has its own set of problems to deal with. Fiber is a lot like a very hard wood that will not crack or break from impact. It seems as if the fiber also has a positive effect on the tone of a acoustic instrument. It is hard to describe, but once the fiber is applied, the tap tone is improved somehow, possibly from a slight stiffening effect on the rib to plate connection. I started using fiber when I needed extra tall binding for a custom guitar project. I liked the results on that guitar. Now it is just out of preference and convenience that I bind instruments with it.
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Great looking work, Matt!
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Handsome!
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M-sterGreat looking work, Matt!ThumpalumpacusHandsome!
I guess I should show you the headstock binding as well. Basically it is the same process as the body I use pre laminated purfling with strips of fiber to go around the perimiter
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Here I have the neck ready for gluing to the body. The fingerboard is bound in ABS plastic. Notice that the fingerboard binding is applied in a manner that hides the slight tapering of the fingerboard. The binding maintains the same dimensions from the 1st fret to the 21st fret! Also take notice of the routed area under the 21st fret. This area is cut out to fit the Schatten thumbwheel vol. and tone controls. The controls are wafer thin and are mounted by means of adhesive tape after finishing.
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It is always exciting when you pull the masking tape off the binding when doing a sunburst finish. Here is photo of what the binding looks like before I have done any cleanup scraping at all. If you are careful with your masking, touchup is much easier. At this stage there is only the dye followed by several coats of shellac. Next step is varnish and polish to deep shine.
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Nice lookin' burst Matt!
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Originally Posted by Jehu
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I thought the headstock turned out real nice and I thought I would show you how it looks now that it's finished.
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