-
Originally Posted by edh
Long answer... Yes, but the guitar neck needs to be set straight and supported. When you start to run a radiused block over the frets an unsupported neck will flex downward.
When I was at college studying for my city & guilds in instrument repair the guy that taught me would hold the back of the neck in one hand and 'Lightly' apply a whetstone to level frets.
Over the years this whetstone had gone from flat to slightly radiused. No one was allowed to use his whetstone.
Thinking back, the weight of the whetstone could flex the neck slightly.
The best practice for radiused blocks to be used as a fret levelling device would be to clamp the neck so the fingerboard does not flex and that it reads as flat.
(I'm not shouting with this statement, I just want it to stand out)
The very expensive Stewmac neck jig
A home made version
A simpler home made version, can you see the notched ruler reading the flatness of the fingerboard.
Another version this time using box section aluminium (aluminum)
Jazzbow cheap version. Note the block in the middle with two securing points using nylon rope and padding.
Can you see the twist in the rope using a wooden paddle at the head end of the strat?
The truss rod is loosened and the wooden paddle is twisting the rope against the leather padding on the headstock.
This bears down on the neck so the fingerboard is reading flat.
This method works well with Fender type guitars as there is no back angle to the headstock.
The only part of a neck that bends and flexes is between the 3rd and 10th fret. Above the 3rd you get twists and below the 10th the neck mass thickens so there is no movement.
When using the 'Jazzbow Cheapo Neck Jig©' for Fender type guitars a radiused block is used lightly, just enough pressure and not 'Macho Testosterone fuelled aaarrgghhh!!! you bastard!!!' pressure.
On the subject of neck jigs and fret dressing I would either make or invest in one if I were back in the game and trying to earn a crust.
As I work on an 'Ad Hoc' basis I use the following method which doesn't need the neck strapping down as you are only working on one fret at a time
Mask fret board, adjust truss rod so fingerboard is flat, check individual frets for high spots with fret rocker and colour
Spot file the area and re-read with fret rocker. Read and file all frets as necessary, twice. Go easy with the filing , say 2 strikes and measure.
Colour all frets then 'lightly' run 600 grit wet & dry paper (W&D) over frets with an appropriate radius block (this shot is of a 16" radius). All fret tops should be hit at the same time with the colour sanded off the tops. 10 passes would be enough
Then with a piece of the used W&D (which would be less abrasive, say 800 grit) I use the fleshy part of my thumb to round off the edges using the untouched colour as a guide to when the whole fret has been sanded.
0000 grade wire wool is used to polish off the fret
I use me thumb nail to check for any scratches. If there are scratches then get a piece of 600 W&D + wire wool to polish it out.
Then finally I treat the fingerboard to a conditioner (I like Gorgamyte).
So as you can see, the radius block in this context is used as a device to check the evenness of frets.Last edited by jazzbow; 09-09-2015 at 05:48 AM. Reason: cohereren.... coheeransee.... cohear.... coh, ah dammit!
-
09-09-2015 05:37 AM
-
I think it's one of katana's advantage that the strings are on and tuned to pitch, so the neck does not bow that much if at all from the sanding pressure.
I might be wrong though, but that's what i figured.Last edited by xuoham; 09-09-2015 at 05:54 AM.
-
Here's some extreme fret dressing using a radiused block....
Check the wear chart in the background. Can you see the blue colour left in the string grooves on the fret?
Can you see my pencilled in file guide on the masking tape?
The maximum fret height was .050" and the lowest approximate height of one of the grooves was .044" on the G string 14th fret.
Yikes, the entire fret height needed to be dressed down .006"!
This is the result
I kept the filed off fretwire dust for comparison.
A balls out widdly widdly waa-oww machine ready to go!
As a foot note I had to source a new clamped nut with shims as the nut action increased.Last edited by jazzbow; 09-09-2015 at 06:05 AM. Reason: not enough coffee
-
Seems that if you have a central support under the neck that the unsupported parts forward and back, maybe 6" worth would not flex very easily. I was using a heavy metal diamond honing block but the weight was supported in my hand as a glided across the neck. Possibly some use a more assertive approach.
The radius block was convenient and probably would have worked fine by itself. Some appear to favor something 30" long.. others a more compact sanding block. Probably would have to work with both to see the difference. Since you have the frets marked you can see where metal is coming off not sure what the big deal is.
I would rather do one fret at a time but this was a new guitar and frets were all over the place. Needed it level end-to-end.
This all gives me a sense of 'you don't know what you don't know'. Wish there was a place to get lessons.
-
Originally Posted by Spook410
Over the years I have changed the way I dress frets from what I was taught to where it makes sense now-trying not to distort this, don't over file that. Eventually arriving at a point where the skills I have are as honed and polished as the frets I leave behind......
Now it's at a point where I can either do a quick start to finish for the impatient punter or the top class everything is polished for the perfectionist.
I guess given time if you do enough your confidence grows as well as your skill set.Last edited by jazzbow; 09-10-2015 at 03:33 AM.
-
I have a scalloped neck strat that will probably require fret levelling.
I also have a notched straight edge - but then the thought occurred to me that I do not have a flat fretboard to put it on, so how can I use it?
How do luthiers set up a scalloped neck?
-
I am confused because if you are dressing the frets the fingerboard has little to do with that. Dressing the frets are what get the things in order. The fingerboard is the not dealt with. It is possible that the neck has twists and bows that would effect things and fret dressing usually done after the structure foundation is correct
-
thats when a regular old straight edge comes in!! like it was in the days before the notched version was around..your scalloped neck is one of the few necks the notched doesn't work on!! haha
cheers
-
Agree with Deacon, I had to clean up some divots on a Y. Malmsteen Strat I bought on a lark. I handled it like any other neck. I like my necks near flat so I adjusted it to near flat and cleaned up the divots. Obviously a notched straight edge is not going to work as easily as a conventional board but you can always use feeler gauges to determine relief. From growing up with a father who was a an@l retentive boatbuilder and then later working as an inside and outside machinist I have developed a good eye so I didn't bother. If the neck is structurally fine just treat it like any other neck.
-
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Before I dress the frets I have to have a straight neck -correct? - but I can't use the notched straight edge to see if its straight on a scalloped board. And if the frets are uneven a normal straight edge across them wouldn't be much use either.
-
Thx for the reply.
If the frets are uneven (and they are) I don't see how a normal straight edge can be used.
-
Originally Posted by rob taft
I am confused now. How can I use feeler guages to determine relief if the frets are uneven?
I assume you "adjusted it to near flat" by eye. If the 7th/8th frets are high or low ,I will get a false reading of the relief.
This will be my first fret level and I don't want to f*** it up. Am I being too picky regarding the precision required here? I was under the impression that the neck has to be dead flat before fret levelling. I like my action low so raising the action is a no-no for me.
-
yes...too picky..doesn't have to be "dead straight"...if you take your guitar for a plek job they will filter in your action and playing style and adjust to suit...just get it as straight as you can..a straight edge down the fretboard works..you should be able to determine any high frets that are rocking it and factor them out...that's why rob t^ said he eyeballs it!
so dont over "fret" it!!!
haha
cheers
ps- this parts easy.!..its the rest thats hard!!!
-
Once the neck is scalloped, all hope of getting it dead straight are completely lost. All you can do is use the frets to measure it, and get it as close as you can. Scalloping a neck is not the smartest thing one can do to a guitar, but rockers aren't known for intelligence, for the most part. It looks cool, so it's important to do it. But it affects playability adversely in most cases, and insures that the neck can never again be known to be completely straight. Instead of refretting it, I would just buy a new neck, but it's not my guitar, so good luck with it.
-
This is what I suspected -but I thought maybe one or two luthiers would divulge their "secrets" on setting it up. Wanted confirmation on this.
Not refretting - just fret levelling.
-
Vic, Sorry for the confusion. Yes the only thing one could do in the case of your neck is just lay the straight edge on the frets to get an approximation of how flat the neck maybe. Like I said earlier I would just eyeball it. That being said, what makes you think your frets need leveling?
-
No real secrets about fret dressings can be done differently by others. I find I can be as good as a Plek because how the person plays is important. Plek is a lot more $$ and if I take my time go over details it comes out ok. Sometimes necks and frets are at a place you must compromise. One thing I never adjust truss rods under full tension of the strings unless to slightly loosen. Doing hundreds over the years it is an art yet science.
I generally get nut height first at 1st fret then depending on the neck work in 3 sections 1-6, 6-13, 14 out. Going back in between sections. Bill Hollenbeck and Bill Barker always then go to fine Emory cloth they taught me this trick. Dig in with heal of palm and run at fret right angle starting end of board to the nut. This actually gives the correct crown, smooth round fret. Eliminates other type of files although I touch them with crown file I feel the Emory cloth doing the real work. Then steel wool 00, 000,0000 in the order same motion. This shows and voids in the fret edges as steel wool will catch on any burr at end of frets. Let's you know what needs any attention or even fret not quite seated at end.
Finally 2 grades of fine scotch pad same motion. I do not like a lot of relief in neck most well made modern guitars can handle this fine. Heavy handed players may need more. I find the key is all motion is done as I say at the frets as you would put your heel of palm and go right up the neck. Not any action as if you are simply dressing frets from bass to treble side. You do this with fret leveling in beginning but move to length wise for finishing.
That probably made no sense.
-
Originally Posted by rob taft
Infact fret 11 is woefully low and I am debating replacing that fret , or maybe creating faLL- off from fret 12 onwards. Not an expensive guitar by any means at £93 (+ £30 for pickguard and pickups) so it gives me the opportunity to experiment on it. Although it has a beautiful patterned maple fretboard so I will endeavour to keep it in good condition. But being a cheap chinese guitar I knew work would be required on it - so that's ok. If i get this playing at my preferred action of 1.5mm - 1mm I will be more than happy!
-
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Thx for the in-depth reply Mark
I understood most of it (I think..lol).
Basically the "secrets" I were after were the ones specifically involving a scalloped fretboard.
You Tube is a wonderful thing with many guitar "tutorials" but there is a distinct absence of "tutorials"
involving a scalloped fretboard and it seems, as I suspected (as sgosnell says above), determining the flatness of a scalloped neck can be tricky.
-
First, I bought one of them cheap guitars, a Grote. I've read quite a bit of good things about them, both here and other places. I've been wanting a 335 style for some time now, so seeing as how I could get this with Amazon Prime, I took the chance. Does this seem like a problem?
Just kidding of course. It's a shame, because as far as any blemishes go, this was seriously the only one. I couldn't find any problems with the finish anywhere. And while I don't think this is more than a finish crack, I'm not taking that chance. I did tune and set it up, and there were also numerous high frets around 12, 14 and the like. It's being returned and I'll give them one more chance with a replacement which is on the way. We'll see what happens because beyond those, it's actually a decent guitar. It felt really good and it would certainly be a keeper w/o those issues.
Which leads me to a question:
I've looked at a few fret leveling kits, some cheaper than others, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience on that. I've always done my own work on my guitars, and I watched a couple videos on leveling frets and it seems like something I'd feel capable of. Can anyone tell what I'd need to fix a high fret? I've also got one on my Ibanez and I'd like to fix that.
-
You really cannot explain it in this forum it would take too long. Look up some videos and practice on cheap guitars if you want to learn how to do it. It is not complicated as such but requires a lot of hands on doing and checking. Best to have someone explain the process. I don't think it would be worth the money spent to proper tools to get a good job done. I have boxes files and special fret tools that would cost way more than any fret dress done. Unless you do this all the time it would not be cost effective. I personally would not use on of the kits I see for sale.
-
I actually did some more reading and watching, and realize I actually have the tools needed. I have triangular files and straight edges I would trust to be perfectly straight. Sure, specialized tools for fret crowning would be nice, but I've watched more than a few videos now of the job being done with normal files and various grits of sandpaper.
-
shame, as i'd bet that grote guitar..cheapo that it very well might be...still...got that neck injury as a result of improper handling during shipping..not manufacture!
specific fret levelling is no great mystery...a credit card and a some files can get you a great way there...of course expertise comes with time and repetition..but..its only a grote!
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 02-11-2020 at 10:07 PM.
-
That's one of the videos I've watched. Very good, and like you say, not a great mystery.
-
I'd skip the files and use abrasives. Not as abusive and a lot more forgiving. Do the whole neck. 400 g with a straight block will get you there without sacrificing any additional metal. It's worth learning to do for anyone who is a hands on person and fussy about how the guitar plays. No one knows how you like your guitar to play better than you. Good luck it will be worth it.
Scott Henderson/JGT interview
Today, 10:37 AM in The Players