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Originally Posted by Bryan T
Thank you!
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02-11-2013 06:14 PM
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[QUOTE=vejesse;295367]I'm no Luddite. But I consider the PLEK machine in a special, marginal class. Even though it's just as pricey or in cases more so, it's not nearly as valuable to the world at large as the average "conventional" CNC machine tool, at least not yet.
There's nothing a PLEK machine can do that a human being isn't capable of doing if that human being "has the right stroke".
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Here's my take on the PLEK. I've done enough work as a machinist to know know one important fact related to this discussion, and that is you can't have accuracy without rigidity. Picture this: Make a feather weight machine tool designed with many critical housings made not of seasoned iron castings but from machined or even extruded aluminum. Then very lightly clamp your rubbery (wooden) part in place. Does that sound like a rigid setup?
Here's the rub. The claim is 0.0004" flatness over the length of the neck. I'm not sure if they officially claim each fret top is within 0.0004" of the string lie datum plane but this sounds right. Were not even talking about a simple plane but a lofted 3-d surface. And not even a ground surface but a milled surface (their current cutter choice) made from squishy wood and brass lightly tacked in the wood. Anyone ever grind an 18" or 20 long piece of thicker stable steel that's 3" inches wide? Not easy to get .0004 flatness over that distance with your typical clapped out large surface grinder. Now try that with a mill. Then have a semi skilled guy polish out the tool marks. See what I'm getting at?
Take that guitar out of the machine and play it for a week. Take it to bars and through the normal weather changes. Then clamp that guitar to a CMM table and take measurements. The dimensions of those frets tops won't resemble what the neck looked like a week before while in the machine.
Maybe some people familiar with the current state of the art concerning PLEK could answer this question for me: Why change to the carbide cutter? A toothed carbide cutter would have a minimum depth of cut and a much higher cutting pressure. Wouldn't the neck push away from the cutter much more than with their CBN wheel or whatever cutter the PLEK Basic used? I dunno.
I understand that a "problem" neck would benefit from the use of the PLEK, especially if no live body wants to take on the challenge. But the PLEK only levels frets, it doesn't level fingerboards before a refret. Are we to correct the fingerboard surface by hand through a refret, then send the guitar to a PLEK for a fret leveling? Nonsense!
I hope I'm not taken the wrong way because I've love the idea of the PLEK. It's interesting as heck and I'm looking forward to seeing what develops from those guys. As of now it looks like it could be a wise investment for production. But if I had $100,000 lying around would I buy a PLEK Station for a mom and pop sized guitar repair shop? I can think of a better investment.
I'll admit that I've only examined two guitars that had frets leveled by the Plek. One was a Korean made bass guitar. You know the company. The other was a Les Paul done by a Plek Station.
My conclusion: My best work is equal to the Plek. My work on a bad day was not but I can live with that.Last edited by vejesse; 02-12-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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I think that some people are missing the fact that PLEK is also a business decision. Advertise it, use the time you would have used doing a fret job to do something else. If you have a truly busy shop it can pay for itself. While I think that it's true that a very good luthier can match a PLEK most of the time...a PLEK can match a very good luthier ALL of the time.
I'd say that Joe Glaser has been one of the best in Nashville, if not everywhere. But he's got one. Why? Because fret jobs get boring when you have the volume of business he has. When I was in his shop he was repairing an old Gibson style O that belonged to Elvis Costello and had had the business end of a forklift put through its back.
He had time to take on that challenge because the PLEK was doing my fret work.
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Originally Posted by vejesse
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if your frets buzz you might be able to benefit from a PLEK. I have, many times.
or you might just need a truss rod adjustment. however, the PLEK operator can make very sensitive truss rod adjustments with the visual aid of the PLEK's "super exaggerated graph on the display screen" thing (I don't know what its really called). I have benefitted from this a number of times as well.
i would like to think that new guitars made by good luthiers don't need a PLEK job. i would like to think that refret jobs performed by solid craftsmen don't need a PLEK job either. i would like to think that PLEK jobs are only needed after wear and tear. but we can't always get what we want, can we?
in the end, its just a tool folks, and a damned good one.
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I plek'd a guitar with a belt sander, it took those frets right down!
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Originally Posted by Bryan T
But, it would require a complete change over of the machine itself . . . totally different tool heads to accomplish each individual task.
Naaaahhhh . . . I think you misunderstood.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Frets are a press-fit into the FB. Installing frets changes the compression of the FB surface.
Some sort of ultra-precise leveling of the FB would be hard to value considering that you will then add compression to the surface in a progressive manner (more frets per inch as you head up the FB).
Using a CNC system to carve the FB surface is fine, but it does not offer some sort of unique final precision.
And all of this still needs to be considered, as VJ mentioned, in light of the environmental factors that act on your guitar on a daily basis.
Chris
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You guys are getting me really excited about taking my guitars over to my friend and bass players house. 4 months ago he bought a Plek for his business. He's the only person around here who has one.
He uses it for his NEW basses. He's a manufacturer who has his basses built in Korea and shipped here where he assembles and Pleks them to order. I am invited to plek any of my guitars for free.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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Originally Posted by Bryan T
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As for the fingerboard planing, the Plek does plane fingerboards, as it has a high speed motor that accepts different cutters. One of the cutters is a small end mill, which is used for board planing. After the frets are in, the guitar is scanned so if there is any compression the truss rod can be adjusted to allow for that. I have found that if the fret slots are properly prepared, I have no compression issues at all.
Chris is right that if the accuracy of the fingerboard is compromised in subsequent steps, it is of little use to be overly accurate, but if you don't compromise it, the result can be amazing. I have planed boards in the Plek, fretted them and found that they really didn't need to have the frets dressed at all. I always do because there will be an imperfection here or there on the scan, and I'm paid to make those go away, but nothing that would have been noticeable to the player.
I reread this entire thread, and there are so many good points and interesting questions. If anyone has specific questions about the Plek or the process, I'm happy to try and answer them. All in all, the Plek is a great tool that allows extremely accurate and repeatable fretwork, and it saves my bad elbow!
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Excellent post sfguitarworks! Thanks for your input!
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I've seen fingerboards where the top of the board was machined with a ball end mill and there's still plenty of sanding to do after that. Kind of negates the CNC accuracy, no? The way the spindle is oriented you're forced to use an end mill. If you could use for example a super coarse diamond wheel that wouldn't load up with wood , and align that up and down along the neck I could really see that being nice for fingerboards.
By the way, funny how things change. On another discussion board I remember seeing a highly opinionated San Francisco Guitar Works tech vehemently denouncing the PLEK maybe two years ago. I see that he's still on board. Does he run the machine now?
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HA!! Looks like I was typing while sfguitarworks was posting. He's obviously got the hands on experience . . but, it seems we pretty much concur.
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I have 10 guitars he can plek. My main guitar is a frigging mess, but I play it too much for it to get handled. I'll let him start on some of my other ones first. But my 355 desperately needs some attention. But not until I've tried the Plek on some other instruments first.
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I am very impressed with the playability of the Plek'd guitars that I have played and the technology makes alot of sense to me. On behalf of the Canadians here, what is the best option for us if we want to get a guitar Plek'd? By the time we pay for shipping to the USA and back (and sort out the customs challenges) the job could get very expensive. Does anyone in Canada have a Plek machine?
Keith
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Hey SF'works,
Many thanks for weighing in on this with your hands-on (which is sort of ironic here, but meant respectfully) Plek views.
I hope your bizz is well.
Chris
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
(Although, hearing myself saying it as I'm typing it . . . a "Plek job", does sound kinda . . . erotic . . does it not????)
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by vejesse
As for the sanding that's necessary after the fingerboard milling, it's minimal, and I bet most folks wouldn't notice it if we left the board alone. The step-over ratio is so small that the lines are practically invisible, and the end mill works great.
Rob MacKillop not feeling well.
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