What not to do on a gig

[Christian Miller]

Ahem, a CEO who comes scouting at an event where no one attending looks like they'd fit in his/her work culture can keep his/her event if you can land the gig as long as you look the part regardless of well you (don't) play (and s/he can't even be bothered to check if alternative performance uniforms are an option). I never played to be appreciated for form over function.
Am I the only one thinking along such lines now?

Does Duved wear flip flops? I think not.

Do I wear flip flops? Yes. But I have no self respect and not many gigs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

DJG, I don't understand the association.

[pamosmusic]

DJG, I don't understand the association.

In general, if you’ve posted that picture, you’ve taken a dramatic wrong turn somewhere.

[djg]

DJG, I don't understand the association.

the lack of irony in duved's videos make me cringe and do remind me of minstrel shows.

[pamosmusic]

On this side of the pond, that's a joke you'll always need to explain, and it will rarely be worth the explanation. I know in Europe and other places, that's still considered a dark part of musical/cultural history, but over here it's one we just don't play around with at all. Not trying to be a tool here––just putting that in some cultural context.

[AllanAllen]

the lack of irony in duved's videos make me cringe and do remind me of minstrel shows.

Because he hates Gypsies? Is he openly mocking them?

[djg]

On this side of the pond, that's a joke you'll always need to explain, and it will rarely be worth the explanation. I know in Europe and other places, that's still considered a dark part of musical/cultural history, but over here it's one we just don't play around with at all. Not trying to be a tool here––just putting that in some cultural context.

yeah, probably true. and still.

(longer answer cut, cause who cares)

[mr. beaumont]

Who cares? Minstrel shows were blatantly racist.

So yeah, I care. Maybe if you don't know about this stuff don't post.

[pamosmusic]

Who cares? Minstrel shows were blatantly racist.

So yeah, I care. Maybe if you don't know about this stuff don't post.

Yeah it’s well known that folks in other areas don’t necessarily comprehend or maybe fully appreciate the impact of that particular image in American culture.

Theres a video that went viral in early YouTube years of Harry Connick Jr judging some Australian talent tv show and one of the groups came out in blackface and the other judges were like whoaaaa edgy and he was like YOOOO CUT THE MUSIC WE NEED TO TALK.

It’s bad EVERYWHERE, but it’s a distinctly American cultural phenomenon even if it happened elsewhere. So folks who want to invoke it are responsible for understanding how it lands in the states. And for the record: it does not land.

This is one of those things where you need to really understand the cultural impact if you’re going to bring it up. And the cultural impact is that it sucks and isn’t funny.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

In Germany also:

Blackfacing = No-Go

(At least in my circles and despite the success of that mofo fascist party in Thuringia last weekend.)

[djg]

Yeah it’s well known that folks in other areas don’t necessarily comprehend or maybe fully appreciate the impact of that particular image in American culture.

or maybe some folks dont know enough about the sad history of sinti and roma in europe, and the discrimination that is still going on, to appreciate the comparison. blackfacing isnt the only form of cultural appropriation.

[DawgBone]

or maybe some folks dont know enough about the sad history of sinti and roma in europe, and the discrimination that is still going on, to appreciate the comparison. blackfacing isnt the only form of cultural appropriation.

"Cultural appropriation" is mostly new speak used for demonizing someone who borrows something cool from someone else when it is normal for humans to be curious about things that either interest them or make their lives better. People of every ethnic background have done that throughout history and there is nothing wrong with it. It's normal human activity.

[pamosmusic]

or maybe some folks dont know enough about the sad history of sinti and roma in europe, and the discrimination that is still going on, to appreciate the comparison. blackfacing isnt the only form of cultural appropriation.

I do know a good bit. Probably not as much as you.

But note the important distinction ... I didn't feel it necessary to post a picture of demeaning roma pastiche in order to make a point about anti-black racism.

I'm not saying that your comparison came from a racist place. I'm just saying that it's referencing a cultural legacy in the United States with a kind of weight that people here––people whose popular culture is inseparable from the legacy of minstrelsy––generally choose not invoke glibly.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

or maybe some folks dont know enough about the sad history of sinti and roma in europe, and the discrimination that is still going on, to appreciate the comparison. blackfacing isnt the only form of cultural appropriation.

If you throw Sinti and Roma together the Sinti will hate you.

[mr. beaumont]

Blackface wasn't about cultural appropriation. It was about ridicule.

[AllanAllen]

Blackface wasn't about cultural appropriation. It was about ridicule.

Yeah, there seems to be a big disconnect, playing Gypsy jazz for the love of the music, even in cosplay, is not even on the same planet as blackface.

[djg]

If you throw Sinti and Roma together the Sinti will hate you.

nonsense. i happen to personally know the chairman of the german organization for Sinti *and* Roma. You might want to do some reading up:

Dokumentations- und Kulturzentrum Deutscher Sinti und Roma – Wikipedia

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

nonsense. i happen to personally know the chairman of the german organization for Sinti *and* Roma. You might want to do some reading up:

Dokumentations- und Kulturzentrum Deutscher Sinti und Roma – Wikipedia

No nonsense, chavo.

My buddy Rigo: "Rather call me Zigeuner than Roma. I am not sitting at the street corner begging for small change." Romani Rose from the Zentralrat may know him probably. He is a piano player.

And he is not the only one who insists in cultural differences between the gipsies of Middle and Eastern Europe.

[djg]

I do know a good bit. Probably not as much as you.

But note the important distinction ... I didn't feel it necessary to post a picture of demeaning roma pastiche in order to make a point about anti-black racism.

I'm not saying that your comparison came from a racist place. I'm just saying that it's referencing a cultural legacy in the United States with a kind of weight that people here––people whose popular culture is inseparable from the legacy of minstrelsy––generally choose not invoke glibly.

well, i was referencing a cultural reality in europe to which you may be oblivious. you'd be surprised how many similarities there are between sinto and afro-american communities and their place in society. sinto and roma communities are even more closed and distrusting of the gadjo society.

this is also where mr. beaumont gets it wrong imo. there was not only ridicule, but also this fascination with the african culture and music that lead to the racist concept of blackfacing. pretty early (late 1800s) black musicians where already part of minstrel shows that had used blackfacing before. because only they could play the music. the jazz age did not come about because of ridicule.

and take elvis. a guy who became the biggest star in the US because he sounded black and was white. and what is glaringly obvious in the USA due to the color of your skin is much more subtle in europe where many racial groups look very much alike. that is why you can have all these "gipsy" (not an acceptable term either) festivals and gipsy jazz camps with the possibility of not a single gipsy being involved. and the thing is that the public doesnt even have to know. and there is the brutal truth of venues and promoters and their preferences. i'm not even going to go there.

sorry for a bad joke. but the thread sucked anyway.

[djg]

No nonsense, chavo.

My buddy Rigo: "Rather call me Zigeuner than Roma. I am not sitting at the street corner begging for small change."

oh, there is people like that everywhere. life cant be all bad if you still have someone to look down to.

[pamosmusic]

sorry for a bad joke.

There it is.

I know you’re accustomed to knowing more history than others you’re conversing with but this is one where a little humility might be in order.

well, i was referencing a cultural reality in europe to which you may be oblivious.

And perhaps that’s true, but you were doing it by comparing it to a cultural reality in America to which it’s fairly clear you’re more oblivious than you think.

The degree to which you’re wrong about blackface is actually pretty striking.

And in arguing about it, you’re repeating arguments used all the time by folks here who want to minimize the legacy of anti-black racism in this country. You’re not coming from that place, but you’re almost ending there. If you’re not sure what arguments I’m talking about or how the things you’re saying could be useful in to that kind of agenda, then that should probably be enough to tell you you’re not as keyed into this dialogue as you think you are.

This is one where history is extremely important, but being familiar with cultural commentary maybe more-so. There are great historians, but also black critics and essayists who have been writing about the shadow of images like that for a very very long time.

[pamosmusic]

On the bright side we’ve learned one more thing not to do on a gig.

[djg]

There it is.

I know you’re accustomed to knowing more history than others you’re conversing with but this is one where a little humility might be in order.



And perhaps that’s true, but you were doing it by comparing it to a cultural reality in America to which it’s fairly clear you’re more oblivious than you think.

The degree to which you’re wrong about blackface is actually pretty striking.

And in arguing about it, you’re repeating arguments used all the time by folks here who want to minimize the legacy of anti-black racism in this country. You’re not coming from that place, but you’re almost ending there. If you’re not sure what arguments I’m talking about or how the things you’re saying could be useful in to that kind of agenda, then that should probably be enough to tell you you’re not as keyed into this dialogue as you think you are.

This is one where history is extremely important, but being familiar with cultural commentary maybe more-so. There are great historians, but also black critics and essayists who have been writing about the shadow of images like that for a very very long time.

eric lott is hopefully somone you would not acuse of "wanting to minimize the legacy of anti-black racism", and this professor's cultural commentary s pretty much what i posted:
"mixed in with vicious parodies and lopsided appropriation, minstrelsy involved a real love of african american culture" https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...cc=de&lang=en&

i mean, isnt it glaringly obvious? this is basically lott's answer to mr. beaumonts point. makes a lot of sense to me.

"[Blackface] is an attempt to control and own the black image."..... “Although [minstrels] arose from a white obsession with black (male) bodies which underlies white racial dread to our own day, it ruthlessly disavowed its fleshly investments through ridicule and racist lampoon. Yet I am not so sure this is the end of the story.”

[mr. beaumont]

That's the cultural appropriation part.

I mean, any white dude playing jazz has to at least acknowledge that.

Still doesn't make blackface ok.

[pamosmusic]

eric lott is hopefully somone you would not acuse of "wanting to minimize the legacy of anti-black racism", and this professor's cultural commentary s pretty much what i posted:
"mixed in with vicious parodies and lopsided appropriation, minstrelsy involved a real love of african american culture" https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...cc=de&lang=en&

i mean, isnt it glaringly obvious?

He's a historian who wrote a book on the topic. I take real issue with his use of the word "love" in this context (I generally find the contempt implied by the first clause of the passage you quote to be incompatible with love), but he's at least prepared to offer the context to make you understand what he's saying. You are not. The reason I say that is that you're conflating minstrelsy and blackface ... with Elvis. The way white soul and blues musicians used black influences is complicated (the way the record industry used them, even worse) but that's a facile comparison. And frankly, it doesn't have much to do with you posting an image of blackface as a joke even if you thought you were making a valid point with it.

And no. It's not glaringly obvious. You think there is cultural context that I'm missing in Europe and you are certainly right, which is why I'm not arguing with you about Europe right now. I'm just informing you that there is cultural context you're missing here too. I grew up in central Virginia, within sixty or eighty miles of about twenty Civil War battlefields. I used to work for a catering company and would deliver supplies for weddings held at converted plantations every weekend. I was taught––in elementary school no less––about racism (the Civil War in particular) in a way that I find grotesque.

I am informing you of a reality. You do not have the cultural context here. I have more, but in point of fact, I don't have the full cultural context here either. But I do have enough context to put some limits on the way I'm willing speak about it, and the lines I'm willing to cross to make my point. I'm saying that this is an opportunity for you to understand that, or an opportunity for you to insist you already do and to step out of your depth. You can argue about it if you want but it doesn't really change much.