How many players here sing, as well as play?

[Tom Karol]

I love singing...I'm not any good at it, but I love doing it...

Me too, especially harmony.

[John A.]

Coincidentally, I just finished recording a (blues) vocal ...

[stringmann]

I am so glad the marion vids were posted; i was unfamiliar, and if you are, i strongly recommend them! It doesn't hurt that Don't blame me is a favorite, but his storytelling on But beautiful is exquisite imho.

I always sing, even when playing solo guitar gigs. I have never worked on my voice, but always work on guitar. Yet the encouraging comments are always on the singing (with the exception of guitarists sometimes). And while i aspire to sing like kenny rankin and don't make it, i agree with the above posters that the audience relates to the singing much more, and i can sing fine. And it allows me to make these songs last 5 minutes. The songs always mean more to me when i memorize the lyrics, and i hope that translates to the listeners.
Tnx again for posting the marion vids.

[Bop Head]

I am so glad the marion vids were posted; i was unfamiliar, and if you are, i strongly recommend them! It doesn't hurt that Don't blame me is a favorite, but his storytelling on But beautiful is exquisite imho.

I always sing, even when playing solo guitar gigs. I have never worked on my voice, but always work on guitar. Yet the encouraging comments are always on the singing (with the exception of guitarists sometimes). And while i aspire to sing like kenny rankin and don't make it, i agree with the above posters that the audience relates to the singing much more, and i can sing fine. And it allows me to make these songs last 5 minutes. The songs always mean more to me when i memorize the lyrics, and i hope that translates to the listeners.
Tnx again for posting the marion vids.

You are welcome. On the Jazz at Lincoln Center YT channel there are quite a few videos that deal with vocals, by Marion Cowings and others.

Here's another one, I think I also posted before, about phrasing for vocalists that can be applied to instrumental lines as well. Barry Harris, this time not talking about sixth and diminished or extra half-steps, but about what some people call the "African six":

[joelf]

You are welcome. On the Jazz at Lincoln Center YT channel there are quite a few videos that deal with vocals, by Marion Cowings and others.

Here's another one, I think I also posted before, about phrasing for vocalists that can be applied to instrumental lines as well. Barry Harris, this time not talking about sixth and diminished or extra half-steps, but about what some people call the "African six":

It's great to be able to watch him in action as he appeared in his final years and still in command and exuding charisma.

I heard him demonstrate 'the six'. To me it sounds like quarter note triplets, where you have to be really relaxed not to rush the tempo. So I guess 3 + 3 = 6?

[Bop Head]

It's great to be able to watch him in action as he appeared in his final years and still in command and exuding charisma.

I heard him demonstrate 'the six'. To me it sounds like quarter note triplets, where you have to be really relaxed not to rush the tempo. So I guess 3 + 3 = 6?

I think that's it. The permanent 2 (resp. 4) against 3 from the West African heritage of jazz.

[RLetson]

I was smiling all the way through that clip of Harris singing, not only because it's a song that I love, but because of the pleasure he was clearly finding in playing with it. He wrung out of it both its musical and lexical beauty--and his improvisation was an apppropriate extension of the original.

I've posted about this before, but much of the appeal of singing a great song is in navigating the ways melody and language interact--each system its own set of phrasing possibilities, and every performance can present a different path through the texts. It works the same way with poetry (thinking Shakespeare here, but any great poem will invite similar performance variations.)

[Bop Head]

I was smiling all the way through that clip of Harris singing, not only because it's a song that I love, but because of the pleasure he was clearly finding in playing with it. He wrung out of it both its musical and lexical beauty--and his improvisation was an apppropriate extension of the original.

I've posted about this before, but much of the appeal of singing a great song is in navigating the ways melody and language interact--each system its own set of phrasing possibilities, and every performance can present a different path through the texts. It works the same way with poetry (thinking Shakespeare here, but any great poem will invite similar performance variations.)

That's also what Marion Cowings is talking about in the Jazz At Lincoln Center videos I posted above (and he shows how to practice it). Make the lyrics your own instead of copying a certain version by Ella or Frankie Boy or whoever (or even learning the melody from the notation in the Real Book). Tell the story as if it was your own. And I think doing that with a song you are working on will also lead to a more personal lyrical version of a tune for instrumentalists. (Which does not mean you should not listen to other singers, quite the contrary. I just remembered how great and free floating Aretha Franklin's phrasing is on that gospel album she recorded in her father's church.)

[joelf]

I think that's it. The permanent 2 (resp. 4) against 3 from the West African heritage of jazz.

WTF is resp. 4? Please be clear and spell out words if you want to be understood.

IMO it's not a great idea to ever assume anyone else knows what you do.

And as always thanks for the clear, simple explanation I ask for...

[joelf]

he shows how to practice it). Make the lyrics your own instead of copying a certain version by Ella or Frankie Boy or whoever (or even learning the melody from the notation in the Real Book).

Tell the story as if it was your own.

The 1st sentence is a given. The 2nd should hold true only once you've learned how the original goes, from a composer's version if possible. If you can't see a lead sheet there are composer's performances by Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, Irving Berlin---even Billy Strayhorn singing Lush Life. They all sang their own material, and Mercer and Arlen were quite good. You can find much of this on YouTube these days.

Next, sing it to yourself to internalize it. Many times. After you feel you've memorized melody, composer's changes and lyric it's not a bad idea to write your own lead sheet. I've probably done at least 50 of these, to judge by my bulging bottom file cabinet). Now you can heed what your own muse whispers in your ear about how you want to sing it. Now you can make rhythmic or even melodic changes (writing it down or just remembering) b/c you know how the song goes. You have a foundation to build your own edifice on. But make damn sure that your alterations are at least as good as what was there to begin with. Don't reharmonize a song to death just b/c you think you can or that it's 'hip'. Don't be merely self-indulgent. Be knowledgeably inventive. Finally,throw analysis and overthinking out the window and just let fly.

Marion, or any good teacher would back this up, b/c they know to 1st go to the source. They themselves do it.

Real Book? Would come in handy at a weenie roast...

[Bop Head]

WTF is resp. 4? Please be clear and spell out words if you want to be understood.

IMO it's not a great idea to ever assume anyone else knows what you do.

And as always thanks for the clear, simple explanation I ask for...

Two (respectively four) against three = quarter triplets against straight quarters

Resp Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

[joelf]

Two (respectively four) against three = quarter triplets against straight quarters

Resp Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

OK, that's better. Sort of like 3/2 or 2/3 clave, also African-derived.

Clave seems to be the rhythm that's most found its way into American popular music. Afro-Cuban was very popular in the '50s, cha cha and mambo being a real craze. Even in Miami Beach or the Catskills Jewish people went wild for it.

Then there's the 'Bo Diddly clave', used to good effect on his song Not Fade Away. Good stuff...

[Bop Head]

OK, that's better. Sort of like 3/2 or 2/3 clave, also African-derived.

Clave seems to be the rhythm that's most found its way into American popular music. Afro-Cuban was very popular in the '50s, cha cha and mambo being a real craze. Even in Miami Beach or the Catskills Jewish people went wild for it.

Then there's the 'Bo Diddly clave', used to good effect on his song Not Fade Away. Good stuff...

It goes much deeper than that. There is a YT channel of a guy (who posted here years ago under the name bonsritmos) who lives in Brazil and learned Candomblé rhythms from a drumming master and investigated the relations of North American rhythms ranging from ragtime over early jazz to post-bop to traditional african rhythms.

[Bop Head]

The 1st sentence is a given. The 2nd should hold true only once you've learned how the original goes, from a composer's version if possible. If you can't see a lead sheet there are composer's performances by Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, Irving Berlin---even Billy Strayhorn singing Lush Life. They all sang their own material, and Mercer and Arlen were quite good. You can find much of this on YouTube these days.

Next, sing it to yourself to internalize it. Many times. After you feel you've memorized melody, composer's changes and lyric it's not a bad idea to write your own lead sheet. I've probably done at least 50 of these, to judge by my bulging bottom file cabinet). Now you can heed what your own muse whispers in your ear about how you want to sing it. Now you can make rhythmic or even melodic changes (writing it down or just remembering) b/c you know how the song goes. You have a foundation to build your own edifice on. But make damn sure that your alterations are at least as good as what was there to begin with. Don't reharmonize a song to death just b/c you think you can or that it's 'hip'. Don't be merely self-indulgent. Be knowledgeably inventive. Finally,throw analysis and overthinking out the window and just let fly.

Marion, or any good teacher would back this up, b/c they know to 1st go to the source. They themselves do it.

Real Book? Would come in handy at a weenie roast...

"Composer's performances" would be a nice thread in the "songs" department of this forum. Although I have to say I find Arlen singing (I found an album called "Harold Arlen and his Songs") rather corny.

I always go to to the Internet Archive and try to retrieve as many different versions of a song as possible ranging from early pop recordings of crooners accompanied by an orchestra (corny, too)

All the Things You Are : Luis Russell and His Orchestra : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

to instrumental jazz versions to get an average impression of what is possible. Of course I listen to Sinatra as well and to Ella's songbook albums but not only. I also try to find the original vocal/piano/(guitar/ukulele) sheet music (often the hand engraved notation is reused until this day, easy to spot after you developed an eye for it) and look at the piano notation and not just at the guitar/uke chords if available o understand what is going on. Then I look at the different fake books I have got, quite a collection meanwhile, and try to understand the reharmonisations.

And the most important thing: I learn the lyrics by rote. Nothing more embarassing than a singer looking into his mobile phone reading the lyrics. How can you put real emotion into your singing if you are occupied with reading? There are conductors who learn the score of a Beethoven or Bruckner symphony by rote in a few hours and we cannot remember three verses of a Beatles tune, WTF ...

[Ukena]

I have always found it irritating when a singer is performing and needs to look at the lyrics of a song. It's one thing if it's a request from the audience, but if one has arranged to perform in front of an audience, have the courtesy to prepare the song ahead of time. That's my pet peeve.

A singer should know a song at least as well as an instrumentalist knows the head – which means a ton of practicing.

I spent years in musicals, on Broadway and in the hinterlands, singing for a living (and doing non-musicals as well) – in the chorus to begin with, then later singing solos. I also taught actors how to sell a song, and the most important thing, any voice coach will tell you: tell the story. Actually, as an instrumentalist one has a story to tell as well, although in those cases one doesn't necessarily have to tell the lyricist's story.

A singer (who also played guitar) who was exceptional at telling a story was Eva Cassidy. Her version of Fields of Gold tells a completely different story than Sting told – it's practically a masterclass in storytelling through a song.

I have also attended Marion's class, and took a couple of jazz guitar lessons with Ilya (who, amazing guitarist as he might be, is no slouch as a singer either). I took Marion's class to learn how to communicate with a jazz group with whom one has no previous experience – what to tell them before the song, and how to communicate during the song. He is an amazingly helpful and supportive musician (as is Ilya, for that matter), but he really has no time for a singer who has not learned the song properly – someone who can't sing the song through as the composer wrote it.

Hoagy Carmichael's performances of his own songs are revelatory.

I shall provide a performance of my own with my now-defunct guitar trio, before I took up the archtop guitar, and began my long, perilous journey into learning to play jazz on it.

[frabarmus]

I like singing without a guitar in my hands (especially a cappella, especially harmony with other voices, even madrigals, for instance). For me, somehow, playing guitar and singing no longer go together (unless I'm composing)... I've stopped singing as soon as I started to play jazz guitar...

[wintermoon]

I have always found it irritating when a singer is performing and needs to look at the lyrics of a song. It's one thing if it's a request from the audience, but if one has arranged to perform in front of an audience, have the courtesy to prepare the song ahead of time. That's my pet peeve.

A singer should know a song at least as well as an instrumentalist knows the head – which means a ton of practicing.

I spent years in musicals, on Broadway and in the hinterlands, singing for a living (and doing non-musicals as well) – in the chorus to begin with, then later singing solos. I also taught actors how to sell a song, and the most important thing, any voice coach will tell you: tell the story. Actually, as an instrumentalist one has a story to tell as well, although in those cases one doesn't necessarily have to tell the lyricist's story.

A singer (who also played guitar) who was exceptional at telling a story was Eva Cassidy. Her version of Fields of Gold tells a completely different story than Sting told – it's practically a masterclass in storytelling through a song.

I have also attended Marion's class, and took a couple of jazz guitar lessons with Ilya (who, amazing guitarist as he might be, is no slouch as a singer either). I took Marion's class to learn how to communicate with a jazz group with whom one has no previous experience – what to tell them before the song, and how to communicate during the song. He is an amazingly helpful and supportive musician (as is Ilya, for that matter), but he really has no time for a singer who has not learned the song properly – someone who can't sing the song through as the composer wrote it.

Hoagy Carmichael's performances of his own songs are revelatory.

I shall provide a performance of my own with my now-defunct guitar trio, before I took up the archtop guitar, and began my long, perilous journey into learning to play jazz on it.

https://ukenatrio.squarespace.com/new-gallery

I just pulled that record out the other day and turned my trio onto it, just a phenomenal recording w/the added bonus of the great Art Pepper to boot.

[joelf]

It goes much deeper than that. There is a YT channel of a guy (who posted here years ago under the name bonsritmos) who lives in Brazil and learned Candomblé rhythms from a drumming master and investigated the relations of North American rhythms ranging from ragtime over early jazz to post-bop to traditional african rhythms.

I know that guy. Andrew Scott Potter. He's a good drummer who lives in Recife, used to live in NY and near ChiTown. My friend Vanderlei Pereira is IMO the cat. He's an encyclopedia of African-derived rhythms. Also a unique drummer, especially playing jazz. Has a group, Blindfold Test (he's sightless) that plays NYC once in a while. Paul Meyers is the guitar player, and he's an ace. Vanderlei also teaches a class at I think Jazz Academy. There are some Blindfold Test videos on YouTube...

[joelf]

Although I have to say I find Arlen singing (I found an album called "Harold Arlen and his Songs") rather corny.

I didn't find him corny at all. He comes from a family of cantors (Arluck) and knows how to reach people.

But I 'guess that's what makes horse racing'...

[Flat]

I sing anytime I want to be alone. Works well.

[Lionelsax]

I sing when someone or something wants me to do it.

[RobbieAG]

Back when I first started doing gigs, I grudgingly started singing. At the time disco was all the rage and I hated singing “Macho Man” and “YMCA” (for weddings etc.). Now I appreciate the tunes (jazz standards) I played for many years a lot more after I’ve learned the clever/brilliant lyrics of many of the tunes and sing them. The lyrics are a huge part of what makes songs great. In general, audiences do focus a lot more on singing than guitar playing, so being able to sing reasonably well opens a lot more opportunities. Even some of the all-time greats like George Benson expanded his audience and market opportunities by his singing more than his incredible playing.

[joelf]

This might seem obvious, but:make sure you get a good key for your voice before going onstage!!

Unless you're playing in your bathroom or in a meadow for the cattle, don't make listeners hear you strain to make notes you could've put in a comfortable key.

Who am I talking to, and about?

So glad you asked! ME!

Seriously, rushing to do anything will lead every time to mistakes. So even though I'm starting to slow down just a frickin' hair at the ripe old age of (a spry) 69, I still do some things without quite enough forethought. So at least in music we need to take all the time we need to get it right in the shed. Fortunately, my 2 steadies are loose enough that I can self-correct (read: start afresh in a better key) after starting and hearing the wrongness. But that could even be avoided if I worked out keys before and wrote them down.

Sometimes you have to take a step back before acting. As improvisers we want to be in the moment and just go. But if I did the above in any high-profile venue I could be fired or not called again, say, if I was subbing and got a bad report.

The good news: I'm playing and singing enough that I'm starting to know and memorize the vocal keys. So I'm reaching out to those just starting out with singing with the above words of advice. Trust me, get it right before you're onstage. It'll save you trouble, and other than a masochist (and a singer I met---and I swear---her name is Vanessa Trouble) who wants trouble?

[Bop Head]

This might seem obvious, but:make sure you get a good key for your voice before going onstage!!

Unless you're playing in your bathroom or in a meadow for the cattle, don't make listeners hear you strain to make notes you could've put in a comfortable key.

Who am I talking to, and about?

So glad you asked! ME!

Seriously, rushing to do anything will lead every time to mistakes. So even though I'm starting to slow down just a frickin' hair at the ripe old age of (a spry) 69, I still do some things without quite enough forethought. So at least in music we need to take all the time we need to get it right in the shed. Fortunately, my 2 steadies are loose enough that I can self-correct (read: start afresh in a better key) after starting and hearing the wrongness. But that could even be avoided if I worked out keys before and wrote them down.

Sometimes you have to take a step back before acting. As improvisers we want to be in the moment and just go. But if I did the above in any high-profile venue I could be fired or not called again, say, if I was subbing and got a bad report.

The good news: I'm playing and singing enough that I'm starting to know and memorize the vocal keys. So I'm reaching out to those just starting out with singing with the above words of advice. Trust me, get it right before you're onstage. It'll save you trouble, and other than a masochist (and a singer I met---and I swear---her name is Vanessa Trouble) who wants trouble?

I had described that a few posts above. The first time I went to a jam session organized by the jazz students of the Munich conservatory (meaning there are really some cats that know how to play) at a place called Milla*) I did not carry a guitar with me because I came straight from work. But I decided I would dare singing All Of Me. House band finishes, I walk up he stage, hum the first notes quickly and ask the piano player what notes that were, deduce key from the answer and ask the others to play the tune in that key. Unfortunately at the very upper limit of my range. I went through it but it was not one of the most comfortable situations of my life squeezing (and squeaking LOL) through the song in front of 150 people. That was when I decided to really work out the key beforehand the next time ....

*) belongs partly to former FC Bayern München soccer star Mehmet Scholl who is a huge indie rock fan and founded this club together with Peter Brugger from charting pop band Sportfreunde Stiller

[joelf]

I had described that a few posts above. The first time I went to a jam session organized by the jazz students of the Munich conservatory (meaning there are really some cats that know how to play) at a place called Milla*) I did not carry a guitar with me because I came straight from work. But I decided I would dare singing All Of Me. House band finishes, I walk up he stage, hum the first notes quickly and ask the piano player what notes that were, deduce key from the answer and ask the others to play the tune in that key. Unfortunately at the very upper limit of my range. I went through it but it was not one of the most comfortable situations of my life squeezing (and squeaking LOL) through the song in front of 150 people. That was when I decided to really work out the key beforehand the next time ....

*) belongs partly to former FC Bayern München soccer star Mehmet Scholl who is a huge indie rock fan and founded this club together with Peter Brugger from charting pop band Sportfreunde Stiller

Look at the bright side: at least you didn't pick My Way.

That one sounds like shit in any key...