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I'm looking to do more organ trio gigs next year. I like the sound of organ trio records and I think it will also be easier to book as a trio is less expensive to book than my usual quartet.
Main issue here is..... can't find an organ player! I've got drummers, bass, vocals, and horns galore in my stable but no organ. How easy is it for piano players to switch over to an organ trio vibe? I don't expect someone to lug around a full hammond B3 setup. I have seen guys on YouTube playing a small keyboard rig that gets pretty close to that sound. I've got a good amount of piano players in my area, I'm gonna start asking around. Any piano players on here who can weigh in on this? Is it a difficult transition?
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12-31-2023 10:55 PM
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The only thing piano and organ have in common are keyboards, two completely different instruments. Organ players are really hard to find, good ones even harder. But it's easier today than it was just 15-20 yrs ago, a lot of piano players have taken up organ to keep gigging. I know a bunch of great piano players and bass players that hate organists because they take gigs away from them. Back in the day every other club had a B-3 installed because the owners figured out that it was cheaper than hiring quartets, you could even get by w just organ and drums.
And when you find a good organist good luck getting them for a steady gig, they're always booked.
I'm lucky to have had two good ones back to back in my steady trio for many years.Last edited by wintermoon; 01-01-2024 at 03:56 AM.
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I was a pianist who converted to organ. It took a lot of work for me, but that was during my formative years. So yes, it is a challenging transition which can't be taken lightly.
However.. There absolutely are high level pianists who can hold down left hand bass, and if you threw them on a digital Hammond rig, they could probably hack it.
I would ask around.
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The nord keyboard has a good enough Hammond sound. I think that's what you'll find most guys playing. I've seen someone on the smalls stream put some fabric over the audience front to cover their legs and it gives off more of a real organ impression, very clever idea. Give the impression of an organ even if it's not there.
Good luck on that, I'd love to do an organ trio gig.
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The shelf is bare!
I have not found any Hammond guys yet. Been asking around on all the Hammond Facebook groups and also Craigslist.
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As Wintermoon says, organ and piano are different animals. Piano is touch sensitive, organs are not. No matter how hard you hit the keys, the volume is the same - so they have a volume pedal for loudness control. Pianos have sustain pedals, organs don’t. So when you let up on a key, the sound stops. Organ keys are not “weighted” like piano keys, so they have a totally different feel. Note attack is faster by far, so it’s harder to be subtle or play with a light touch if you’re not used to the immediate action of an organ.
All of this makes it harder to play lines smoothly on an organ, and the technique of doing so is more intense. Chords have a different character on an organ - they’re more hornlike, and they don’t ring or decay like a piano does. Also, mistakes are loud and clear on an organ because even the lightest touch on the wrong key is as loud as the notes around it, so it’s harder to camouflage clams.
Because of the physical differences, it’s easy to tell when there’s a pianist playing an organ unless he or she has learned and mastered both as separate instruments. And it’s usually easy to tell when a pianist is playing a weighted stage piano keyboard set to an organ sound. They can’t stop using the sustain pedal, and they move from key to key by letting up on the last one as they hit the next one (which muddies up fast lines). And the organ sounds of most keyboards (even high end ones) are not as rich and full as a Hammond’s.
We have a Nord Stage 2 and a Hammond XK5 Pro at the club where I play. The Nord’s organ sounds are decent, but even through our Leslie 3300, it’s easily distinguished from the Hammond. And the XK5 is digital, so there’s even a bit more Hammond in a real B3 (although they’re mighty close).
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I'd say it took me about two solid years of mostly concentrating on the organ (both transcribing countless solos and playing on a Hammond clonewheel clone) to become comfortable at the organ. At least proficient enough to book jobs with an excellent drummer and guitarist around town, as a trio, and to work in a few other bands, mainly as an organist.
I'd call "proficient" being able to work any presets/V-C/perc settings, all of the drawbars, most *especially* the expression pedal (extremely subtle art), and the Leslie/leslie sim and how and when to use it. And knowing the idiom of jazz organ....a piano player will probably be confused why so many organ tunes are in C concert (as a pianist first, I was kind of irritated by that, like: "What? Why I gotta play in C so much? Boring key!")....and the repertoire is different for an organ player...there are standards that are really only associated with the organ (because JOS or Groove Holmes or Don Patterson or somebody did it on a record, and so everybody learned it from that, you know), and so forth.
In my case, I'm still working at mastering full-sized set of pedals (no, obviously, pedals are not the main thing as far as bass lines go, at least in jazz, but they're essential if you really are listening to the way various players used them...the average audience though, they won't hear the difference, but will see the show nonetheless as presented) and the critical two manuals, with a Lester-K box into a powered monitor at home. Not all the way there yet, but any decent player should be able to get excellent results out of my little setup. But I diverged a few years ago back to piano, and now guitar, and organ is almost a foreign instrument to me.
However, I don't see any reason a decent piano picker couldn't just dial up a preset, and play a walking bass in the LH (IMHO, any piano player should be able to walk bass in LH with good time and good lines while soloing and/or comping -- if they can't, then they haven't been listening to people like Herbie, Bill, Hampton Hawes, Gene Harris....Dave McKenna....c'mon....that's a thing every pianist should be able to do without thinking about it), and be plenty good enough for playing some pick-up jobs.
Weighted keys/"hammer-action"/whatever are probably going to be the main problem, if you're lucky. I wouldn't play organ stuff at all on a weighted keyboard. 90% of the smears and squabbles are immediately gone from one's repository of tricks.
Enough to start with, anyway, with very basic equipment.Last edited by jackalGreen; 01-06-2024 at 09:24 AM.
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I’ve been playing the organ for decades, and I’ve never gotten the hang of the footboard. I can hit roots, fifths etc when comping, but I just can’t learn to play a steady and musical bass line with my feet. I gave up trying long ago.
Originally Posted by jackalGreen
I’ve had several keyboards over the years, starting with a Farfisa Fast 4 (can you say “cheesy”?). From Casio to Kawai to Kurzweil, all fell short in the organ department. The Nord Stage 2 I use now is the best of the lot, but it’s still no Hammond (which is why we also have a Hammond). It does a very fine grand piano, especially the big Bosendorfer. I still have my Kurzweil as a backup and for gigs outside the club. But the organs in it are not in the same league as Nord’s, and the semi-weighted keyboard is a compromise. Only a Hammond plays, feels, and sounds like a Hammond.
The best drawbar keyboards are designed to be organs and are much better than any with even semi-weighted action and any sounds other than organs. There used to be a few (eg from Vox), but they all seem to have left the market. For less expensive alternatives to the top quality digital keyboards, the Yamaha YC and the Roland V do Hammond sounds very well. But the sounds are just approximations and the right key action just isn’t there.
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Call up the music store and talk to the piano teacher. I bet if you wave $100 in front of them they’ll take a gig. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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I getting tempted to learn the damn thing myself since nobody plays it!
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I gotta say, I'm a little surprised. Maybe not. But there was a pretty big resurgence in classic Hammond organ jazz....oh....twenty years ago....along with a big jump in Rhodes and Wurlitzer electric pianos. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
No, I'm not that surprised.
It's not just the instrument, which is formidable, but it has its own culture, at least in jazz. Its own set of GASB standards, favored keys, a kind of limited set of idiomatic "tricks," which are difficult to master in their own right. And now, of course, so many of the masters, even younger masters, have left the scene due to death and all that.
I still think if you put a half-decent piano picker in front of a single manual dedicated clonewheel, with drawbars and an expression pedal, he or she should be able to pick it up in about a week provided (i) can walk bass in LH (ii) has a good diet of recordings to work with.
As in, enough to perform in public without too many embarrassments. Maybe not, but depends on the player. I'd think you'd have loads of piano people willing to try, but perhaps that old organ grinder thing isn't hip any more for a certain generation? I know I see a lot of Nord Electros still on stages these days, so the sounds and keyboard actions are out there, at least.
Dunno! It's a mystery to me.
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this is a cool doc on the Hammond [even has interviews w/ one of my favorite players, the late Leon Spencer Jr, check out his work w/ Melvin Sparks and Idris Muhammed if you're not familiar w/ him]
anyway @ 7:50 there's a couple interesting comments
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It also took me about 2 solid years to gain the proficiency, comfort, and command of the instrument. I got my XK-5 rig in March 2021, then took lessons with Tony Monaco during 2022-2023. Before that I had some proficiency on piano and some dicking around at organ. Originally Posted by jackalGreen
I definitely noticed the technique required to command the instrument as more intense for the reasons you mentioned. Since there's no touch on Hammond compared to piano, you're forced to rely on rhythm and time feel to propel the music. Mine was lacking so I had to really focus on it. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The XK-5 came out in 2016, I wonder if Hammond will release a new improved generation of it. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Originally Posted by jackalGreen
I can play ballads and medium tempos with the pedals only holding down the bass. But I prefer to do foot bass only holding down the bass for slow ballads. For general playing I turn on the pedal to lower button on my XK-5 and play left hand bass only. I don't care for lower manual left hand bass and foot tap. It sucks up more concentration and doesn't sound as good on the digital rig. Although I know that's the idiom for playing a tonewheel organ. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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You should! It's 'the king of instruments.' :P Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 01-06-2024 at 05:09 PM.
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Yeah, advanced pianists would be able to hack it. There are a lot of advanced pianists. Originally Posted by jackalGreen
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I've gigged with pianists "kicking bass" (left hand, not feet) and that has worked, but the time is usually not quite as good as with a bassist. Not every pianist is good at it, but some are. Not organ, but not a quartet either.
As far as organ goes, I haven't found anybody, and I'd like to. It's a great sound.
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If only it were that simple... Originally Posted by jackalGreen
This is similar to the dilemma of using a guitar synthesizer as a sax, vibes, keyboard etc. Just having a realistic sound is not enough to make you a player of that instrument. If you don't play the real thing, you don't know the many subtleties and idiosyncrasies that give the instrument its character - so most guitarists who use a Roland synth "play" the synthesized instruments like guitar players. Sure, a half-decent piano picker can "pick it up in about a week" - but he or she will have no idea at all how to make it sound like it should.
Chords on a piano can be shaded with touch dynamics, expession pedals (of which a piano has at least 2), and control over how loud each note is. Organists have no such luxuries. So pianists who think playing an organ is no different usually sound very heavy and thick on an organ. PIanists can play left and right hands with different touches for different volumes. Organists have to use two manuals to do that and set them up as they want them beforehand - it's not controllable on the fly.
There are so many differences that I can't begin to describe them all here. But it's rarely a fast, simple and smooth transition from piano to organ or vice versa. Sure, you can get by with a pianist on a simgle manual keyboard. But it's just not going to sound like it should unless that player is extremely sensitive, extremely good at listening, and willing to stay simple until he or she gets the hang of it.
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They might take it but that doesn't mean they'll be any good, I certainly wouldn't be willing to take a chance. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
It's almost like asking a guitar player to play bass all night, they might be able to get through the gig but how's it gonna sound?
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Exactly. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I'm giving the hypothetical piano player benefit of the doubt that he or she knows how to walk bass and do whatever in RH.
But that's a long way from comping (with percussion off), much less stomping on the pedals for a walk-up or something, or flipping drawbars on upper manual with Leslie tremolo, or sliding most drawbars in and using perc 2nd for that Jack McDuff "piano" effect on the upper manual.
No, it wouldn't be the exact thing, but I think the right piano player who has heard the right records could still make a go of it on a live date.
The meat would not be good, probably, but it'd probably be good enough as a base to work from.
And, it should probably be said, walking LH on acoustic piano, in a four, needs a different touch than on Hammond. Hard to describe, but IMHO you don't really want legato on Hammond bass. That's why it sounds so distinctive and good, IMHO.
Just thought of this, though: really, even as smooth and fluent as Sonny Clark is in his solos (probably every single solo I've heard), legato is not so much a desideratum in piano playing in jazz. One likes sharp edges. At least in bebop. One doesn't like the "slide an orange up and down the keyboard" effect so much.
On the organ it's a bit different. One struggles to maintain space between each note when one desires (especially in bass), but it's very easy to make dizzingly fast runs (well...not always easy) in the RH or even both hands.
I dunno. It's a dealer's choice.
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You bring up another perfect example of the “real vs simulated” problem. Notes from a real bass are what I like to describe as elastic. The envelope around each note blooms and dies with slightly blunt attack and decay and a very short sustain plateau. Notes aren’t quite connected, but they’re also not quite apart from each other. It’s neither staccato nor legato - it’s in the very narrow space between them. And despite that narrow space, there’s a lot of room for creativity, flexibility, and beautiful interpretation. Originally Posted by jackalGreen
Organ notes have no decay. Each note sounds as long as the key is pressed and stops immediately on release. So a bass line is a little choppy unless you hold each key until the next one is hit, which makes the line sound thicker and heavier than it should - and you just can’t get creative or funky with timing if you overlap notes. A bass note on piano sustains but with decay, and it has all the ringing harmonics of every other note. If the sustain pedal is down, it also has the sympathetic output from all other strings. So it’s not a distinct bass note - it’s just a lower pitch among many and does not sound distinct unless it’s struck much harder (which is unbasslike).
And then there’s the average guitarist who doubles on electric bass but plays it like a guitar. Even worse, many guitarists doing this seem to think that they sound like bass players by plunking nothing but staccato notes. I don’t like left hand bass because it doesn’t sound or feel like a bass. But I’d much rather have a skillful piano or organ player doing it than a guitarist who only plays bass because “it’s easy and there are more gigs”.
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Everyone is entitled to their preferences, that's fine if you don't care for organ bass, but that's plain old false that it doesn't function that well or that organists can't get creative or funky. It functions very well, it's just a different idiom. The fact that there's the strict attack and cutoff of the notes rather than the nice natural attack and decay of an upright just means the organist needs good command of the instrument. It doesn't mean it's impossible to play bass effectively. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Use headphones and you can hear my teacher dominating with his left hand bass on a swing, Just Friends:
And getting quite funky on his funk tune, Indonesian Nights.
As you can hear, the idea that organ bass doesn't function that well compared to upright is absurd. It's just a different idiom. Now that I'm an organist, I actually prefer organ bass. I wouldn't ever say one is objectively better than the other tho.
I actually like piano bass too haha. It's probably safe to say that it might not function as well as real bass, but I do like it. I like it when it's pianistic, meaning it blends with the rest of what the pianist is playing.A bass note on piano sustains but with decay, and it has all the ringing harmonics of every other note. If the sustain pedal is down, it also has the sympathetic output from all other strings. So it’s not a distinct bass note - it’s just a lower pitch among many and does not sound distinct unless it’s struck much harder (which is unbasslike).
Hank Jones with Joe Lovano
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Please read what I said again - carefully. I did not say that organists can’t get creative or funky. I did not say that it’s impossible to play bass effectively on the organ. What I said was that “you can’t get creative or funky with timing if you overlap notes”, and I think that’s true. Overlapping notes is the way that less than excellent organists achieve an ersatz legato line if they don’t have the technique to start a note exactly when they lift off the one before. It’s sloppy playing and it sounds like it. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
As for how well it “functions”, it functions fine. But all the command in the world can’t endow an instrument with abilities it can not possess.
I did say that I’d rather hear or play with a bass than a keyboard of any kind playing bass. It’s my personal preference, not a value judgment. I’ve played with some excellent organists and pianists who did left hand bass very very well. It’s fine, but I’d rather have an equally good bass player. It’s also true that I’d much rather have good left hand bass than a bad bass player.
I’ve probably been playing piano and organ longer than you’ve been alive, starting with 10 years of lessons from a serious teacher. I play decent left hand bass on both instruments , and I’ve done it when I had to on many gigs over many years. I’d much rather hear or play with a good bass player than me playing left hand bass.
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I'm not trying to discredit your experience. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Nor am I trying to impugn your preference. Literally the very first thing I said was that I don't discriminate against people's preferences.I did say that I’d rather hear or play with a bass than a keyboard of any kind playing bass. It’s my personal preference, not a value judgment.
However..
Maybe you should read what you said again:Please read what I said again.
That's the second time you've implied that organ bass is less adequate of an instrument than upright. Which is false. It's simply a different idiom. Did you not listen to the clips of my teacher destroying it?As for how well it “functions”, it functions fine. But all the command in the world can’t endow an instrument with abilities it can not possess.Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 01-07-2024 at 08:44 PM.
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Now it's a peeve of mine when people try to hold me to a stance that they misrepresented from me and won't let me clarify. So you're absolutely free to clarify what you mean. But to me it sounds like you're trying to describe organ bass as being less adequate by nature..
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
As for how well it “functions”, it functions fine. But all the command in the world can’t endow an instrument with abilities it can not possess.
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So have a rehearsal, or a conversation and see where they are. Who knows, maybe some teacher by you loves Jimmy Smith and they're dying teaching kids twinkle twinkle little star all day on piano. You don't have to be that great at piano to teach 5 year old kids the C scale and 4 bars of "Baby Elephant Walk" Originally Posted by wintermoon
My whole point is just try, if you don't try, you can't complain about not getting anywhere. Go to blues jams and look for a keyboardist, I bet a guy playing blues piano loves Jack McDuff organ jazz. Don't think just because a guy is in a blues band that he can't play jazz, a gig is a gig. $100 to play blues all night beats $0 to watch T.V.
I'm 60 miles south of Chicago in a town of 1,200 people surrounded by cornfields and I have a jazz quartet, and I'm the worst player of the group. I keep the group together by getting us gigs and slowly improving. People are out there, you just have to find them, and if you can't find them, don't quit, pivot your strategy.
Because of something Joelf said, I want to stress, that I'm not trying to be negative, but inspire you. If this dummy can pull something together, surely you can too.
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