Piano/Organ question

[wintermoon]

Well of course you're gonna talk to anyone you'd even considering hiring.
Unless it's someone for a steady gig rehearsals don't typically happen for a $100 hit in the real world, I wouldn't even ask. But there's other ways to find out if someone can cut at least one night, and agreed if you wait for someone to just fall in your lap you'll be doing just that, waiting.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

That's the second time you've implied that organ bass is less adequate of an instrument than upright. Which is false. It's simply a different idiom. Did you not listen to the clips of my teacher destroying it?

It’s not “less adequate”, but it’s also not a bass. No matter how well it is played, it is not and can not sound like a bass or do everything a bass can do. You keep taking this as an insult to the organ, and it is not. It’s fine for driving the beat and for filling out the spectral palette of chords. But it cannot solo like a bass. It cannot blend with a guitar to become one big stringed instrument like Keenan, Catlett et al did with Freddie Green.

Organ bass has one sound, but a bass has many voices depending on how it’s plucked, slapped, stroked, bowed etc. Organ bass is not suited for soloing or playing leads (at least in jazz), but a bass sings across all the octaves from nut (or C foot) to the end of the fingerboard.

We’re not disagreeing about this simple fact. Good organ bass drives some seriously great jazz. But it is only bass because it’s low frequency sound. It can’t sing the melody of How Insensitive with a bow, it can’t make the head on Bernie’s Tune come alive like a bass, and it can’t do a pizzicato solo. Organ bass is fine and has its uses, but….. it’s not a bass - it just plays one on TV [that’s a joke!].

[Jimmy Smith]

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

[JazzIsGood]

a B3 player surfaced today and he is real good! so things are looking up!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

a B3 player surfaced today and he is real good! so things are looking up!

That's great news! He has his own B3, yes? If it's a real one with a 122 Leslie and it's not cut up for portabiity, you'll soon bulk up!

[AllanAllen]

The nord is perfectly cromulent for a bar or wallpaper gig. I can't see why anyone would lug around a B3 these days.

[wintermoon]

The nord is perfectly cromulent for a bar or wallpaper gig. I can't see why anyone would lug around a B3 these days.

I know a few guys that still do. back in the day I played hundreds of gigs w/ guys that used them and always told them I'd help w/ the loading if they were on the fence about bringing them because of the hassle. there's a definite difference in sound but not enough for most people to put in the effort for a $100 gig anymore. as for modern clones I like the newer Hammonds more than the Nords, the X5 for example is a great instrument.

cromulent huh?, I just learned a new word today.....

[grahambop]

I think Pat Metheny said somewhere that he used to get lots of organ trio gigs when he was young, because they always needed a fit young guy in the band to help them lug the B3 into the clubs.

[rpjazzguitar]

I understand that organ kicked bass isn't acoustic bass.

But, when I've heard (The Rascals (organ), The Doors (Fender kb bass), Wes to Joey D) I've never thought, gee, they should get an acoustic bass.

The few times I've played with an organist kicking bass I found the time to be really driving. Nature of the instrument, since one player is playing both the bass line and comp? Or just that particular player's time?

For that matter, I've also heard tuba playing a standards gig (in lieu of bass) and it sounded really smooth. Great sound.

And, finally, a friend who plays EWI will occasionally fool around by playing bass on it. I thought it could work on a gig pretty well, but we never did it.

[jackalGreen]

The few times I've played with an organist kicking bass I found the time to be really driving. Nature of the instrument, since one player is playing both the bass line and comp? Or just that particular player's time?

I think it really depends on the genre (or sub-genre, I guess).

Nothing can really compare to a classic organ combo boogaloo done with organ bass. No knock against boogaloos played with string bass, but it's two completely different styles of music, as far as I'm concerned. Like sub-sub-genres!

For basic tunes in four or three, I'd say you were fortunate enough to play with a good organist.

I know I don't really enjoy playing organ with a bassist...it messes with the sense of control I'm used to having at the instrument. Yeah, I've done it in the past, but it just doesn't feel right....actually, what I've done is pushed in all the drawbars for the lower manual and carried on as normall....good way to freak out the bass player until they recognize no sound is coming out of the organ bass!)

But it works well enough, I admit, on funk or rock/fusion type things. And it doesn't sound out of place when people like Jimmy McGriff played with a bass guitarist or a double bass (or Shirley Scott or anybody else). Not much to argue with records like Jimmy McGriff (who had a phenomenal feel for organ bass, in addition to being pretty heavy on the pedals, similar to Don Patterson) and his *Electric Funk* or *Let's Stay Together* albums (most, but not all, the sides were done with a bassist), or Jimmy Smith's *Root Down* album, with a bass guitarist.

And, of course, Shirley Scott, briefly mentioned above, almost always used a bassist on records....but not always, and she was more than competent at every aspect of the organ.

[JazzIsGood]

I found a guy who has a B3 and also a keyboard rig. I guess we will see what happens. He says he will bring the B3 in a trailer if it's a good paying gig. Better hit the gym so I'm ready to unload that thing if needed. Looks in the video like he's playing bass w the left hand, not the pedals. Sounds pretty good tho. I'm an intermediate hobbyist player so that's good enough for me.

Does the pedal playing give a different tone? Or does it just free up your left hand to play chords?

[wintermoon]

I found a guy who has a B3 and also a keyboard rig. I guess we will see what happens. He says he will bring the B3 in a trailer if it's a good paying gig. Better hit the gym so I'm ready to unload that thing if needed. Looks in the video like he's playing bass w the left hand, not the pedals. Sounds pretty good tho. I'm an intermediate hobbyist player so that's good enough for me.

Does the pedal playing give a different tone? Or does it just free up your left hand to play chords?

Most players play left hand bass and accent certain notes on the pedals.
If he has his own B3 that he transports that's a good sign, probably knows how to play.

[AllanAllen]

I know a few guys that still do. back in the day I played hundreds of gigs w/ guys that used them and always told them I'd help w/ the loading if they were on the fence about bringing them because of the hassle. there's a definite difference in sound but not enough for most people to put in the effort for a $100 gig anymore. as for modern clones I like the newer Hammonds more than the Nords, the X5 for example is a great instrument.

cromulent huh?, I just learned a new word today.....

[AllanAllen]

I understand that organ kicked bass isn't acoustic bass.

But, when I've heard (The Rascals (organ), The Doors (Fender kb bass), Wes to Joey D) I've never thought, gee, they should get an acoustic bass.

The few times I've played with an organist kicking bass I found the time to be really driving. Nature of the instrument, since one player is playing both the bass line and comp? Or just that particular player's time?

For that matter, I've also heard tuba playing a standards gig (in lieu of bass) and it sounded really smooth. Great sound.

And, finally, a friend who plays EWI will occasionally fool around by playing bass on it. I thought it could work on a gig pretty well, but we never did it.

FYI The Doors used a studio bassist on everything after their first album.

[jackalGreen]

Does the pedal playing give a different tone? Or does it just free up your left hand to play chords?

Both. If you only played bass using the pedals, it wouldn't be the traditional jazz sound. You can do it, as many gospel players do, even on extremely up tempo tunes or shouts, and a small handful of jazz organists do like that sound (and many more/most organists when playing ballads, or for variety when trying to mimic a gospel "shout" organ, or digging into the pedals while playing a funkier style), but it won't give the traditional Jimmy Smith sound.

You can very easily hear when the organist is using the pedals to support the left hand's line (beyond a brief tapping) if you listen closely to most organists on record...on, say, walking up to a significant chord change, or parts of a turnaround.

The sound of the pedal tone is unmistakeable, and not always, or even that often, desired on its own in jazz music.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Both. If you only played bass using the pedals, it wouldn't be the traditional jazz sound. You can do it, as many gospel players do, even on extremely up tempo tunes or shouts, and a small handful of jazz organists do like that sound (and many more/most organists when playing ballads, or for variety when trying to mimic a gospel "shout" organ, or digging into the pedals while playing a funkier style), but it won't give the traditional Jimmy Smith sound.

You can very easily hear when the organist is using the pedals to support the left hand's line (beyond a brief tapping) if you listen closely to most organists on record...on, say, walking up to a significant chord change, or parts of a turnaround.

The sound of the pedal tone is unmistakeable, and not always, or even that often, desired on its own in jazz music.

The XK5 has a “pedal to lower” button that puts pedal pitch and tone on the left end of the lower manual for left hand bass.

The other pedal trick that adds a kick is the “pedal thump”. Hitting a pedal (any pedal) with a quick light tap will make a pitchless thump. Using this for rhythmic accent along with left hand bass is a classic B3 move that can really spice up a driving bass groove.

[Jimmy Smith]

Looks in the video like he's playing bass w the left hand, not the pedals. Sounds pretty good tho. I'm an intermediate hobbyist player so that's good enough for me. Does the pedal playing give a different tone? Or does it just free up your left hand to play chords?

The jazz tradition isn't playing bass only with the pedals, it's playing most of the bassline and outlining the chords with the left hand while thumping an extremely simple part, often even simpler than roots, with the pedals that fills out the sound percussively and in the lowest register. While on slow ballads they would play the whole bassline with the pedals while freeing up both hands to play individual parts, usually chords in the right hand and melody in the left hand.

Listen to the first 2 songs on this Jimmy Smith concert. 1st tune, Sonnymoon for 2, is left hand bassline with super simple foot tap. It shows his foot staying in one spot, not playing a bassline at the very beginning and again at 1:47. He's basically only playing F and the notes next to it. The 2nd tune is Days of wine and roses with foot bassline, right hand chord, and left hand melody.

Although it isn't the jazz tradition to play the whole bassline with foot, some guys can do it. Here's a good example. He's playing foot bassline, left hand chord, and right hand melody.

[rpjazzguitar]

FYI The Doors used a studio bassist on everything after their first album.

Douglas Lubanh from Clear Light iirc.

I heard the Doors live, 3x, before the third album came out. Fender kb bass.

[2bornot2bop]

this is a cool doc on the Hammond [even has interviews w/ one of my favorite players, the late Leon Spencer Jr, check out his work w/ Melvin Sparks and Idris Muhammed if you're not familiar w/ him]
anyway @ 7:50 there's a couple interesting comments

It’s a pity that Joey D. wasn’t in that video! Darn shame.

Listen to Joey playing bass with his left foot at the end. I’ve never heard a more talented musician on organ. Joey had pure soul and could swing with the best of them.

Gone way too soon!

[wintermoon]

It’s a pity that Joey D. wasn’t in that video! Darn shame.

I have no idea why he wasn't in it especially since he was alive, but one of the greats for sure.