Trading Fours

[AllanAllen]

Here's a question I've waited too long to ask.

How do you trade fours? Assuming blues and assuming a 4 piece band. Do you keep the progression going during the drum breaks or hold it? It's typically a shit show at jam sessions. So I'm looking for advice from someone who pulls it off without even thinking about it.

So, blues progression.

Piano :|| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: |Eb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Sax: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 |
Drums : | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Bass: |Eb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 ||

Or

Piano :|| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: 4 bar N.C. break
Sax: | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums : 4 bar N.C. break
Bass: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 |
Drums: 4 bar N.C. break

I used this example because it is nice and neat. 3 soloists with the drums splits up a 12 bar nicely. I'll be happy to go into other lineups and song forms after there's a consensus on blues.

[Paulie2]

Here's a question I've waited too long to ask.

How do you trade fours? Assuming blues and assuming a 4 piece band. Do you keep the progression going during the drum breaks or hold it? It's typically a shit show at jam sessions. So I'm looking for advice from someone who pulls it off without even thinking about it.

So, blues progression.

Piano :|| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: |Eb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Sax: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 |
Drums : | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Bass: |Eb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 ||

Or

Piano :|| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums: 4 bar N.C. break
Sax: | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7|
Drums : 4 bar N.C. break
Bass: |F7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | F7 |
Drums: 4 bar N.C. break

I used this example because it is nice and neat. 3 soloists with the drums splits up a 12 bar nicely. I'll be happy to go into other lineups and song forms after there's a consensus on blues.

It’s the first one. Form keeps going through the changes while the drummer is playing. Often in a lineup as described above the bass player will often not trade, and just hold down the bass line while the horns and piano/guitar will trade.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Keep to the form. For fun, we often start by trading 8s and cutting back to 4s, then 2s on subsequent runs through the form. Melodic, inventive drummers will use the melody as inspiration for rhythmic and even tonal structures. Get your drummers to listen to a little Joe Morello, if they don't get it. Here's an example:

[AllanAllen]

Thanks, I think it'll be cool to trade 8 4 then 2 but... have to get 4s down first.

[pcjazz]

Yes, the first one, but nobody else plays during the drummer’s 4s. Watch Frank Vignola guitar night broadcasts, they do this a lot.

[pingu]

yeah keep the form ….

[Tal_175]

Once a tune starts, it runs its course even when nobody is playing it or musicians are bringing out only parts of it. It's always going in the ether. Ideally everybody is in agreement with where the tune is the whole time regardless of what's being made explicit.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks again everyone. Like I said, at jam nights it can fall apart and someone taps their head and just cut and run. I'm never quite sure if I'm helping or hurting. Like, I think hitting some chord stabs during the drum breaks helps everyone keep the form, but it sounds like Wipeout to me.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think hitting some chord stabs during the drum breaks helps everyone keep the form, but it sounds like Wipeout to me.

Some drummers like to solo against chords on the 1st beat or a pattern (like a chord alternating on the 1st, then the 1st & 2nd beats). Discuss it with them and watch them for cues & hints while playing.

[AllanAllen]

Some drummers like to solo against chords on the 1st beat or a pattern (like a chord alternating on the 1st, then the 1st & 2nd beats). Discuss it with them and watch them for cues & hints while playing.

I’ll have to try that and then ask him.

I did ask the bass player if I should turn off my volume during his solos. I need to play to keep from getting lost, he said I was sparse enough and that it helped him stay on track.

I sure do like playing this music.

[pamosmusic]

Some drummers like to solo against chords on the 1st beat or a pattern (like a chord alternating on the 1st, then the 1st & 2nd beats). Discuss it with them and watch them for cues & hints while playing.

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this.

Usually that feels like a bit much. A quick punch on the first beat of an important transition is about the most I hear generally. A chord on the beginning of the B section or at the top of the form. Sometimes stylized like a little big band hit or something.

In a big band you’ll hear accompaniment on a drum solo but that’s usually highly coordinated and more complex.

[pamosmusic]

I’ll have to try that and then ask him.

I did ask the bass player if I should turn off my volume during his solos. I need to play to keep from getting lost, he said I was sparse enough and that it helped him stay on track.

I sure do like playing this music.

This might be a bit beyond the scope but this is a super super super important skill.

You ever try working on this sort of thing in practice? You can play along with a play along but only play the first four of the form. Or the second four. Or the third four. Or play a chorus and leave a chorus, etc. On a longer form, you can play the A, leave the B, play the A, leave the C, or whatever. Basically just trading with nobody.

Lots of ways to do it, but it’s a big one. “Tacit” is a huge part of your textural palette. Even when I’m the only comping instrument (which is most of the time) I usually find myself laying out for an entire chorus of a sax solo or something pretty regularly. If there’s a piano playing, I’ll lay out for an entire solo or longer. You’re talking about trading and stuff. Being able to hear the form without the muscle memory in your fingers is a doozy.

[AllanAllen]

This might be a bit beyond the scope but this is a super super super important skill.

You ever try working on this sort of thing in practice? You can play along with a play along but only play the first four of the form. Or the second four. Or the third four. Or play a chorus and leave a chorus, etc. On a longer form, you can play the A, leave the B, play the A, leave the C, or whatever. Basically just trading with nobody.

Lots of ways to do it, but it’s a big one. “Tacit” is a huge part of your textural palette. Even when I’m the only comping instrument (which is most of the time) I usually find myself laying out for an entire chorus of a sax solo or something pretty regularly. If there’s a piano playing, I’ll lay out for an entire solo or longer. You’re talking about trading and stuff. Being able to hear the form without the muscle memory in your fingers is a doozy.

Yeah, there’s just so much to work on I haven’t gotten to it yet. Tracking form is getting easier with time, but I still get
lost.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Yeah, there’s just so much to work on I haven’t gotten to it yet. Tracking form is getting easier with time, but I still get lost.

If you know the tune, sing or hum it in your head while laying out. If you’re reading it, keep reading as though you were playing. If you don’t know the tune and don’t have a chart, don’t try to play it at all.

The biggest problems with staying on form through drum solos is drummers with less than great time sense and those who try (and fail) to play complex phrases beyond their skill level. It’s compounded when they get too creative with timing outside the time signature or rhythmic pattern of the tune. The good ones are like Art Tatum - no matter how far outside the count they seem, they’re right back in time before the solo ends. Far too many finish one or more beats off. If you know from prior experience that this is going to happen, playing even one note on the first beat of each chord change will help keep many in line.

And when I’m the leader, I’ll count the last bar out loud so everybody knows we’re coming around if there’s any doubt about any of the players. This can be critical to success for jams.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, there’s just so much to work on I haven’t gotten to it yet. Tracking form is getting easier with time, but I still get
lost.

Fair enough. Another thing that can help is to do voice-leading exercises with single notes. That really helps with ear and with single note lines too. A few birds with one stone.

Or alternatively, rather than trading through the form, you can do things like play three bars and rest one. Move the one bar around in each four bar phrase. Really really really helpful for phrasing single note lines too. So again … a lot like that trading exercise but a really good way to get a few birds with one stone.

[rpjazzguitar]

There is a school of thought that a bass solo gets no harmony. But, I have never met a bassist who objected to it and I know many who ask for it. They like to hear some harmony as much as any other soloist.

I like drums on fours (sometimes, 8, 2s or a mixture) but I tend to prefer drums playing over vamps where the rest of the band plays a repeated figure.

I don't like solos where I'm supposed to get confused about where One is.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don't like solos where I'm supposed to get confused about where One is.

When the soloist doesn't know where One is, can the band be far behind? In my experience, this almost always happens because the soloist is trying to do things for which he or she lacks the chops. The second most common reason is that someone is not paying attention. When the soloist is really far out, I may even count through the form and keep the beat with my foot. There are players with whom you truly never know if they're going to get out of a solo without crashing. Sadly, they can take the band with them.

One of the most important talents a band leader can have is being able to get the band out of the trouble created by a member or a vocalist. Every once in a while, you just have to land that plane on the river. And if you're really good, the audience thinks it was planned that way.

[rpjazzguitar]

When the soloist doesn't know where One is, can the band be far behind? In my experience, this almost always happens because the soloist is trying to do things for which he or she lacks the chops. The second most common reason is that someone is not paying attention. When the soloist is really far out, I may even count through the form and keep the beat with my foot. There are players with whom you truly never know if they're going to get out of a solo without crashing. Sadly, they can take the band with them.

One of the most important talents a band leader can have is being able to get the band out of the trouble created by a member or a vocalist. Every once in a while, you just have to land that plane on the river. And if you're really good, the audience thinks it was planned that way.

I also think it gets to the issue of who you're playing for and why.

One of my bandmates says that his goal is to have fun playing the music we play.

My goal is to see audience members moving to the music, however unconsciously.

If the drummer feels the first way, he may go into outer space. It won't matter whether he sticks the landing -- the audience in the kind of places we play won't care. Might be different at a jazz festival.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

One of my bandmates says that his goal is to have fun playing the music we play.

Unfortunately, some have their fun at the expense of the song and the band. Most of the soloists who go off the rails and make it hard to follow them are paying more attention to having their fun than they are to the music and their role as a team member.

My goal is to see audience members moving to the music, however unconsciously.

…just as long as they’re not moving toward the exit ?

[Sam Sherry]

There is a school of thought that a bass solo gets no harmony. But, I have never met a bassist who objected to it and I know many who ask for it. They like to hear some harmony as much as any other soloist.

Several decades into my journey as a bassist I take it further than that:
Give me the same support I give to you.
Do not hang me out to dry.
Make music with me.

[John A.]

There is a school of thought that a bass solo gets no harmony. But, I have never met a bassist who objected to it and I know many who ask for it. They like to hear some harmony as much as any other soloist.

I know one bass player who vehemently objects to comping and will tell people to stroll, but he's the only one I've ever encountered do this. Honestly, sometimes I feel like telling the pianist to lay out because so many don't seem to know how to leave space.

[pcjazz]

I know one bass player who vehemently objects to comping and will tell people to stroll, but he's the only one I've ever encountered do this. Honestly, sometimes I feel like telling the pianist to lay out because so many don't seem to know how to leave space.

You need to talk with the pianist about sharing comping responsibilities.

[AllanAllen]

You need to talk with the pianist about sharing comping responsibilities.

I like to just stand there and let the piano roll with a big dumb smile on my face.

[drbhrb]

It's fun to trade 6s on a blues sometimes

[AllanAllen]

It's fun to trade 6s on a blues sometimes

Switching to 8s, 6s, and 2s is something to keep in mind once I get 4s down and then get bored of it.