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As a Westerner/American, I am often amazed at what happens in Eastern Euro in jazz.. These guys are second to none.
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11-11-2023 05:00 AM
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As a European I am often amazed how little many US-Americans know about which countries other than their own are located on which continent ...
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Armenia - Wikipedia
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Well, that was not far off... West Asia/Eastern Europe are next to each other. Armenia is pretty close to the Black Sea. Things can easily get mixed up in that area. Originally Posted by Bop Head
How many fellow Europeans know, for instance, that there's a republic (in Europe!) where Buddhism is the religion of the majority? Not many, I bet!
Kalmykia - Wikipedia
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good fact, I’ll store that one for future dad use… Originally Posted by frabarmus
Tbh I don’t think knowledge of former Soviet states is very advanced in Western Europe… my generation’s sense of geography is also a little skewed by the USSR … I still tend to think of Czechia for example as Eastern Europe, but which of course it is not when you take into account Ukraine, let alone Georgia.
The definition of Europe is not very geographical tbh. In fact one could say it’s a source of political contention, even armed conflict.
if I were an alien (or an American ;-)) looking at the earth from space I doubt it would occur to me to divide Europe off as a separate continent from Asia.
Generally the definition I remember goes pretty much ‘something Caucasus something something Volga? Umm, next question.’ Obviously we don’t tend to think of mountain ranges and rivers as defining continents in general, though we may see them as a feature of a subcontinent, as with the Indian subcontinent… but that’s also a clear peninsula
Armenia is to the east of Türkiye though… there’s politics around Türkiye’s continental designation iirc…. ‘Transcontinental’ apparently.
Anyway, lots of great musicians seem to have come out of Armenia….Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-11-2023 at 06:45 AM.
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I think it was 1983, or so... I went to see the Peter Petrov Quartet (sax, guitar, bass and drums) at the "Mississippi Jazz Club" in Rome.
Peter Petrov: Bulgarian saxophone player. One of the most exciting, surprising Jazz concerts I've ever been to. Those guys had incredible musicianship, they burned, improvised like crazy, they could really swing and the music could also get incredibly complex (with some Bulgarian folk influence, odd rhythms etc.). And, I swear, there were no more than 10 of us in the audience (my guess is: who would give an F about Bulgarian Jazz!?). I went to talk, backstage, to Peter Petrov after the gig. He told me that his favourite musician was Miles Davis, whom he litterally worshipped! An unforgettable experience, for the few of us who were curious enough and cared enough about something beyond our ordinary musical experience. And the guitarist was amazing. His solid body looked like a "toy guitar" (like a "Trabant" guitar!?) and, boy! The music that came from it!! I reckon he would have had no problem playing with Oscar Peterson or with Frank Zappa.
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More than one continent, wow now my head is spinning. Just when I figured out there was a country north of us and another south. And don't forget most of us only speak one language, albeit not very well. Just kidding of course. I for one am always amazed at the quality of music from other countries and glad so many share it on this forum.
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So a competent band plays jazz. What's the fuss about? Because they're not AMERICAN?
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Fake news - all commenters purporting to be outside the US, including myself, are bots. Originally Posted by Ralphy
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That really depends on who's definition you take! We owe the name to the (ancient) Greeks, and they drew the line at the Bosporus. Everything east of that wasn't Europe. That puts about half of Ukraine outside of Europe (sorry but not sorry, I for one really can't think of that country as European, let alone countries even further east, like Kalmykia). Besides, if Kalmykia is European why isn't Armenia?! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Evidently the current east/west division is largely a political one; I wonder how purely geographic the american distinction between eastern and western states is.
A little reminder: quite a few of the great German archtop builders came from the former eastern Germany.
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Hey, it was a compliment/praise. Don't be so defensive. Jazz was born in America, it's great to hear such playing across the world.
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And there’s your problem innit Originally Posted by RJVB
Indeed we do, but given there’s a wee bit of water under the bridge since then and Greeks also believed that there were dudes in Africa who jumped around on one massive foot, I’m not sure Greek thinking on geography is particularly relevant to our modern understanding, except where it may indicate how subjective the boundaries of ‘Europe’ (whatever the hell that is) are. and how geographical definitions are largely spurious and tailored to fit political expediency.We owe the name to the (ancient) Greeks, and they drew the line at the Bosporus. Everything east of that wasn't Europe.
Considering bits of Ukraine used to be bits of Poland… Ah it’s complicated…. The elites of Moscow and Petersburg once regarded themselves as Europeans albeit perhaps in a more colonising sense…That puts about half of Ukraine outside of Europe (sorry but not sorry, I for one really can't think of that country as European, let alone countries even further east, like Kalmykia). Besides, if Kalmykia is European why isn't Armenia?!
Seems to be the notion of Europe is basically up for grabs at the margins and a tool of political world building. Arguments about what is and isn’t Europe take on an ideological tenor.
Wasn’t Türkiye keen on joining the EU at one point? The political point was certainly made that the EU was a christian club. I wonder if Byzantium had held out till modern times how we’d think of that region today?
Well you do have a fairly hefty mountain range tbf.Evidently the current east/west division is largely a political one; I wonder how purely geographic the american distinction between eastern and western states is.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-11-2023 at 10:31 AM.
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Anyway chzechia’s pretty much slap bang in the middle, and I tend to think of it as Eastern Europe because I grew up with the iron curtain…
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What problem? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
So should we also throw out, I don't know ... Pythagoras, no matter how right he was?Indeed we do, but given the Greeks also believed that there were dudes in Africa who jumped around on one massive foot they also used as a sunshade. I’m not sure Greek thinking on geography is particularly relevant to our modern understanding,
And key elements of French/EU culture (e.g. in the arts of fine dining/table manners) are actually imported from Russia (aka the Russian court).One key and rather interesting difference from the Russian perspective is that the elite of Petersburg and Moscow of the c18-19 (for example Katherine the Great) viewed themselves as European
How could it not if you don't use a historico-geographical definition that has lost most if not all of its partiality?Arguments about what is and isn’t Europe take on an ideological tenor.
From what I remember of my history classes they were actually keen on conquering Europe at one point ^^Wasn’t Türkiye keen on joining the EU at one point?
I also seem to remember that the US was very much in favour of EU Turkey (pun intended) but a majority if not actually most of the EU against. Which just goes to show that just wanting to be part of the EU doesn't make you European...
What if Iran or Irak decide they'd like to join the club? Is there even a point in continuing to expand the club esp. with countries that have increasingly different cultures, not to mention economies? Many people I know here in France despise what they think of as the American colonialism (and I can definitely see their point), but isn't continued EU expansion more or less the same thing? Should I think of it as a means to avoid the global US federation pictured in so many SF novels?
In case you wonder: I used to be rather fervently pro-EU and still think many things are better here than elsewhere but the past 1 or 2 decades I've become increasingly weary of the EU meddling with things that really shouldn't be their concern.
You mean the one very much to the west?Well you do have a fairly hefty mountain range tbf.
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Exactly what I was thinking when looking at a map and seeing how much of Austria is equally to the east. Plus that it was still joined with Slovakia at that time. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
That said, Austria does have a bit of an "eastern feel" to it, which probably isn't surprising if you accept that we put the east/west border where we do.
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It’s almost like Europe is rather culturally diverse or sumfink. Originally Posted by RJVB
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Can we increase the span a bit by going much further east, and changing hemispheres?
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This was about the fabulous BB playing in EU. RIP Sammy.
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We remember Pythagoras when he was shown to be correct. We are less interested in his feelings about beans and flatulence. Well at least I am. Originally Posted by RJVB
This is not a maths problem. If it was there would be no room for debate, (or dispute.)
I think the definition of Europe by the Greeks is … well I mean who cares? Really? To what extent does the Hellenic world represent the political world after the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages let alone the present?
simply defining something geographically does not mean everyone agrees to that definition most definitely including those in power. There are many many border disputes in the world.And key elements of French/EU culture (e.g. in the arts of fine dining/table manners) are actually imported from Russia (aka the Russian court).
How could it not if you don't use a historico-geographical definition that has lost most if not all of its partiality
The use of the term Europe can also be understood to normative which is why it’s messy.
Theres a lot to unpack and discuss in what you say here. I’m going to leave it today.From what I remember of my history classes they were actually keen on conquering Europe at one point ^^
I also seem to remember that the US was very much in favour of EU Turkey (pun intended) but a majority if not actually most of the EU against. Which just goes to show that just wanting to be part of the EU doesn't make you European...
What if Iran or Irak decide they'd like to join the club? Is there even a point in continuing to expand the club esp. with countries that have increasingly different cultures, not to mention economies? Many people I know here in France despise what they think of as the American colonialism (and I can definitely see their point), but isn't continued EU expansion more or less the same thing? Should I think of it as a means to avoid the global US federation pictured in so many SF novels?
In case you wonder: I used to be rather fervently pro-EU and still think many things are better here than elsewhere but the past 1 or 2 decades I've become increasingly weary of the EU meddling with things that really shouldn't be their concern.
You mean the one very much to the west?
It seems to me though that we are in agreement that Europe is culturally and politically defined, and not geographically well defined in the way South America is. Which is pretty obvious.
I would probably disagree in other ways, especially on the mutability of that border, but this is a longer conversation.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-11-2023 at 11:03 AM.
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I'm now sorry I posted this. Will leave it to the rest of you to discover on your own.
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Except it wasn't (in the EU; Stephanie Jones is nowadays btw) and that's why we got side-tracked Originally Posted by Woody Sound
When I say geographical I mean that, not geo-political. I do realise there's no clear-cut eastern border once you go north of the western shore of the Black Sea. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
We should probably leave it at that. No matter how civilised the discussion has been (I think) there's a reason why most forums ban the discussion of politics.
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For the record, I meant Eastern Europe, not EU. My mistake, and it was a compliment. Be kind.
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Yeah, good example: Sarah Palin "didn't know Africa wasn't a country" | US elections 2008 | The Guardian Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Won't somebody think of the Vikings ?
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sure - history has this rather unfortunate tendency of involving politics. I also think that we probably basically agree on the generals if not the specifics. Originally Posted by RJVB
Except it wasn't (in the EU; Stephanie Jones is nowadays btw) and that's why we got side-tracked
When I say geographical I mean that, not geo-political. I do realise there's no clear-cut eastern border once you go north of the western shore of the Black Sea.
We should probably leave it at that. No matter how civilised the discussion has been (I think) there's a reason why most forums ban the discussion of politics.
If this discussion has served a purpose it was shown to me how much of my understanding of what Europe actually is - as a European - kind of hazy and ill defined. Germany is definitely European for example, but it may not be so clear in the case of other nations such as Ukraine. Is European identity cultural? Historically religious? (many European states are today broadly secular but historically identified with Christendom).
I find the questions more interesting than a glib answer actually.
I know that doesn’t mean everyone’s concept is also hazy and ill defined, but I’ve not seen anything here that seems a compelling counter argument on the one hand, and I think if you were to ask most inhabitants of the EU, the response would be, well, hazy and ill defined. They might give a definition according to their politics.
I would also expect some variance in definitions according to respondents professional areas of knowledge where relevant
You seem to be saying that a firm and immutable geographical definition would solve these problems, but I see that as shifting the problem to something else - getting all parties through all time to agree to the definition (the Ancient Greek?). This does not strike me as especially easy.
There’s obvious value in adopting an internationally recognised definition but it seems to me the boundary drawing will always be subject to the politics of the time and necessarily temporal. Well, at least one would hope it would contain that much thought (partition cough cough)
There are lots of things like this in the world… see ‘jazz’ haha.
or an American aviator can gain astronaut wings without being ‘in space’ according the internationally recognised definition.
Legally, you have to stick the line somewhere, but there’ll always be disagreements about the line. Something something international relations…
Anyway it’s a bit of a tangent but this makes me think of the ‘one China policy’ of Taiwan, where if I understand it both the Taiwanese government (I think this originate with the KMT?) and the CCP formally declare themselves the government of China
I find very strange but makes sense historically and as realpolitik because counterintuitively it is more acceptable diplomatically to the PRC that Taiwan recognises Taiwan as part of China than Taiwan declaring independence, even though they (formally) declare themselves government of the same territory. It’s so weird.
In any case, it seems to me that if this is a discussion we can have as two European citizens, I can understand an American who locates Armenia in Eastern Europe. Quite honestly I’m not 100% I could locate Birmingham on a map of the UK.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-12-2023 at 07:59 AM.
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If people are conflating Europe with the EU, I might find myself ‘transcontinental’ as well haha Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-12-2023 at 08:01 AM.
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