Jazz Has No Borders

[ragman1]

Europe is a continent comprising the westernmost peninsulas of Eurasia located entirely in the Northern Hemisphere and mostly in the Eastern Hemisphere.

It shares the continental landmass of Afro-Eurasia with both Africa and Asia. It is bordered by the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Atlantic Ocean to the west, the Mediterranean Sea to the south, and Asia to the east.

Europe is commonly considered to be separated from Asia by the watershed of the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea, the Greater Caucasus, the Black Sea, and the waterways of the Turkish straits.

Europe - Wikipedia

Good enough for me.

[Peter C]

The cradles of civilisation are found in Mesopotamia, India and China. The Mediterranean came later.

[RJVB]

The Mediterranean came later.

If we're talking about the Mediterranean Sea, she was probably already there when Lucy walked down south.

Jazz however came so much later that I don't know why we're even talking about it here

[frabarmus]

"Europe is commonly considered to be separated from Asia by the watershed of the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea, the Greater Caucasus, the Black Sea, and the waterways of the Turkish straits."

Europe - Wikipedia

So then... (again)... why is Armenia Asia and Kalmykia Europe? (Not that I care that much, by the way ). They're both west of Caspian Sea and part of Caucasus, aren't they?
Well, anyway they're both pretty much where Europe and Asia merge, I suppose...

[ruger9]

I only read the first page, I don't think I can stomach the next two. WTH is this thread about? Good jazz is good jazz, it doesn't matter who is playing it or where it's being played. Does everything have to turn geopolitical these days??? Fit into neat little pre-categorized boxes??

And that goes for what constitutes "jazz" as well (kindly see the recent Julian Lage thread).

[frabarmus]

Good jazz is good jazz, it doesn't matter who is playing it or where it's being played.

I know, that's understood (if not obvious), it goes without saying... agreed!!

There was a digression (geographical, rather than geopolitical, as far as I'm concerned) when someone commented about how amazed they were about the geographical knowledge (or lack of?) of Americans (something along these lines, if my understanding was correct) because Armenia was "erroneously" placed by the OP in Eastern Europe rather than Asia). Which made me question my own geographical knowledge and triggered my curiosity about the borders between Europe and Asia in the area of Caucasus. Music is not absent in this thread (I've shared my experience with regards to Eastern European Jazz, in particular) I personally view it, rather, as being placed into a wider context...? Digressions are quite common in other threads too and I'm usually not annoyed by them.

[ruger9]

I know, that's understood (if not obvious), it goes without saying... agreed!!

There was a digression (geographical, rather than geopolitical, as far as I'm concerned) when someone commented about how amazed they were about the geographical knowledge (or lack of?) of Americans (something along these lines, if my understanding was correct) because Armenia was "erroneously" placed by the OP in Eastern Europe rather than Asia). Which made me question my own geographical knowledge and triggered my curiosity about the borders between Europe and Asia in the area of Caucasus. Music is not absent in this thread (I've shared my experience with regards to Eastern European Jazz, in particular) I personally view it, rather, as being placed into a wider context...? Digressions are quite common in other threads too and I'm usually not annoyed by them.

LOL a 2-1/2 page "digression" in a 3 page thread???

[Kirk Garrett]

LOL a 2-1/2 page "digression" in a 3 page thread???

Mansplaining is a thing.

[RJVB]

LOL a 2-1/2 page "digression" in a 3 page thread???

What else would you have wanted those 3 pages filled with? Exhaustive proof that good jazz can come from the east? Extensive counter-proof?

Mansplaining is a thing.

Rather an open door on a forum where the probably vast majority of members have a Y chromosome...

[Christian Miller]

I have never been to Croatia, actually, but I can say, without cheating, that I have seen Croatia, with my own eyes, three times in my life from the small town where I was born, in the Marches, near the Adriatic sea. I have actually seen the opposite coast of the Adriatic... these are rare events, when the air is cristal clear, late September, early October...

Yeah, when she (Branka was her name) said: "we are the centre of the world" I thought to myself: "she probabily means the centre of Europe"... but, as you say, the Mediterranean was the centre of the (old) world and is considered (in the West) "the cradle of civilisation".

actually I didn’t say that. I said the near east was arguably the centre of the world up until the modern age. But I do also note that that part of the world (the Adriatic) has seen many thousands of years of civilisation. And Venice did challenge Byzantium at one point, and left its mark on that coast.

Croatia is really gorgeous anyway and I love it very much. The main tourist destinations of Dubrovnik and Split are insanely busy with cruise ships now though… the hunt is on for other places to go ..

I recently read that Ukraine had conurbations lager than the city states of Mesopotamia as far back as 5000BC iirc (Soviet archeology so not so widely known in the west). We don’t call that civilisation because society although based on agriculture did not have yet a caste system/hierarchy of royalty, priesthood etc clearly visible in the Mesopotamian city states… at least IIIRC

[ruger9]

What else would you have wanted those 3 pages filled with? Exhaustive proof that good jazz can come from the east? Extensive counter-proof?
..

Just filled with THE ACTUAL TOPIC (jazz) would have been nice LOL

[frabarmus]

Like the title says: "Jazz has no borders", this thread has no borders...

[ruger9]

Like the title says: "Jazz has no borders", this thread has no borders...

You got me there!!

[Litterick]

Angélique Kidjo talks to Clive Davis in The Times:

Will the Albert Hall show be a jazz concert in the strictest sense of the word? Probably not. Kidjo’s only interest is in making music that inspires her. “The possibilities are endless,” she explains as she sips a herbal tea. “We just have to be more bold. We have to break down everyone’s mental barriers. People go to this music, and they don’t go to that music. In music, there are only 12 notes. Life is about changes; if you don’t change, you don’t live.”

[frabarmus]

Angélique Kidjo talks to Clive Davis in The Times:

Will the Albert Hall show be a jazz concert in the strictest sense of the word? Probably not. Kidjo’s only interest is in making music that inspires her. “The possibilities are endless,” she explains as she sips a herbal tea. “We just have to be more bold. We have to break down everyone’s mental barriers. People go to this music, and they don’t go to that music. In music, there are only 12 notes. Life is about changes; if you don’t change, you don’t live.”

Thanks for sharing.

Big fan of African music, here!
Salif Keita, Oumou Sangaré, Ali Farka Touré, Rido Bayonne...

Bela Fleck did a nice musical trip/documentary to Africa

[RJVB]

In music, there are only 12 notes.

Well, that put's her squarely in a western music tradition ... and it raises the (rhetorical) question if you can play jazz with systems that have more than 12 notes.

[Litterick]

[joelf]

Let's remember too that jazz was and is the music of and gift from black Americans. It does belong to the world now----a great thing---but it's good not to forget the source.

And please don't misunderstand: I think it's wonderful that Europeans and those in other places worldwide are developing their own jazz traditions and not merely copying American jazz. But as an American jazz musician I like to hear the roots that came from here. Were I from elsewhere I might feel differently.

And I also don't mean to say that blacks and whites didn't do it together and influence each other. But it did start in the black communities...

[Christian Miller]

Well, that put's her squarely in a western music tradition ... and it raises the (rhetorical) question if you can play jazz with systems that have more than 12 notes.

well there’s Middle Eastern jazz fusion. Here Brad Shepik uses a half flat second degree quite clearly on his fretless instrument - not quite sure if it’s a guitar or not - (the sax approximates it to equal temperament.) btw the scale sounds like a modified version of maqam bayati, but my Arabic music theory isn’t all that. I think of it as a sort of bayati Dorian (on C rather than the usual D) if you see bayati as a sort of natural minor scale with a half flat second.

here’s the first page of a chart I did of the tune - it’s good to get into hearing those quarter tones (in this band the cello would take Brads part)


Speaking of the exact pitch of that second degree it varies - they pitch it differently in Armenia and Syria say.

[Christian Miller]

But then much closer to the roots of jazz there’s of course the rather important example of microtonality in the Blues, most famously the ‘neutral third’

West African scales have their own microtonal nuances - I lack the knowledge to say if that is carried over into American music, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

This is built into a lot of western popular music (before autotune) just like African Diaspora rhythms have become a part of most Western music.

Guitar players and singers etc pick this up naturally if they grew up with that music, so it doesn’t seem like we are doing anything.

If I’d grown up in the ME I’d feel the same about maqamat.

[Bop Head]

[RJVB]

I used to have a jazz recording with some kind of oud. Can't find it anymore and it's possible I reused the minidisc on which it sat because I've become somewhat allergic to arabic sounds. In large part but not only because they have been used (probably still are) a bit too much as ingredients in a sauce served over too much of the music I listened to.

Maybe someone has a good example of gamelan jazz?

[frabarmus]

I used to have a jazz recording with some kind of oud. Can't find it anymore

This?

[RJVB]

Quite possible, the name (Khalil) seems right and the cover also rings a bell. But we're talking about a memory from before 2000.

[ruger9]

But then much closer to the roots of jazz there’s of course the rather important example of microtonality in the Blues, most famously the ‘neutral third’

West African scales have their own microtonal nuances - I lack the knowledge to say if that is carried over into American music, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

This is built into a lot of western popular music (before autotune) just like African Diaspora rhythms have become a part of most Western music.

Guitar players and singers etc pick this up naturally if they grew up with that music, so it doesn’t seem like we are doing anything.

If I’d grown up in the ME I’d feel the same about maqamat.

I love microtones. But I am also a fan of that OTHER music created by blacks in the south: BLUES. That's one thing about "proper jazz" (I hate even saying that) there seems to be a "no bending" rule LOL. I mean, I can understand not wanting any bends in something like Johnny Smith's "Moonlight in Vermont", but bending can be a super-expressive tool... and since jazz is "wrong notes" anyway.... (I kid, I kid...)