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Not sure which category this question belongs in.
Gist of it is, I'm looking for stuff to listen to in order to figure out how to fit guitar into a salsa band which already has keys, bass, percussion and vocals.
I sat in with them last week and got invited back, but the pianist suggested I listen to some guitarists, but didn't mention any specifics except, oddly enough, George Benson. I found "My Latin Brother", which is helpful.
Any other suggestions?
Tunes called by this group included Claudia by Chucho Valdez and some others which had Cuban influences. They called Mambo Inn and a bunch of American tunes done Salsa-style.
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10-30-2023 08:50 PM
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Accompaniment/rhythm stuff or motif/melodic stuff, or both?
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Hopefully, a good band with a guitar playing salsa standards. For some players, the lead and rhythm gets blurred, Ray Obiedo strikes me ethat way.
Originally Posted by pauln
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to get the feel of how it all fits together maybe practice playing each rhythm, clave, cascara, the bass and so on. You may not end up playing any of them, but it will give a sense of what the band is doing and help you intuit where to put your contribution?
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You might want to check out tres players like Arsenio Rodriguez or a revivalist group like Vieja Trova Santiaguera or Puerto Rican cuatro player, Yomo Toro (cuatro) played on many Fania all-star sessions.
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Salsa rarely used guitar, montunos were played by a tres or quatro but if your playing Claudia or Mambo Inn they can be played more in the "latin jazz" style. Whats important to remember is ALL this music is in clave and must be phrased accordingly. Since its seems theres no piano in the ensemble then you should be playing a modified montuno that reflects what a pianist would do combined with ideas from tres and quatro. Its all about the rhythm style, you wouldnt play a guaracha feel in a cha cha cha. Listen carefully to piano montunos and tres players in the Son style this will give you ideas. The importance of being in clave cant be overstated. The interesting thing for a guitar player is you go from predominately thinking about chords and harmony to expressing mainly in concert with the bass and perc feel. Heres your chance to be the first "Freddie Green" style latin jazz guitar player. Less is more. Montunos on guitar will mainly be 2 or 3 note chords. If you can cover what Chucho does...well youd be covering some heavy territory. Also you should be able to play the bass Tumbao, listen to it carefully it is generally not in clave but repeating ostinato with accents on the "bombo and ponche" beats when you feel this it will help you combine rhythmically. Check out Yomo Toro guitar and quatro. MOST IMPORTANT if you are new to these styles the best instruction would be Rebecca Mauleon's 3 books particularly the salsa guide book.
Very exciting stuff, as the back story I played latin jazz and salsa professionally for 35yrs, Im retired now but I think the latin quarter is braving new ideas and territory like Timba and beyond. My hat is off to you, best of luck on this adventure.
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Correction, I missed that you do have a piano. Do the pianist a favor and get all 3 Rebecca books!
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Thanks for this! One unexpected result was that I remembered that I already have Salsa Guidebook for Piano and Ensemble by Rebeca Mauleon. Originally Posted by Rickco
The appendix lists players of various instruments, including Tres, but no guitarists.
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Piano montuno is quite busy. Like Ricko says, less is more. Listen to what he's doing, trim it down and hit accents more in line or complementing bass and percussion. Freddie Green indeed.
Tres... in Cuba sometimes it is an actual guitar with a few strings missing and some doubled. A new nut and bridge.
Here's the basic stew in a setting where you can hear what the string player's doing. It's busier than what you'd want to do with a piano on board, but maybe you can pull something out of it. It all started with this kind of thing. Son Montuno:
Also, Buena Vista Social Club? There you will hear piano montuno, tres, and guitar intertwined with whatever that thing's called that Barbarito plays. Eliades and Compay play things that look like guitars but might actually not be. Ry Cooder plays some guitar.
What about Manuel Galban? Even, dare I say, Santana?
It may be that none of these things sound much like the music your band's doing, but they contain some primal ingredients.
Best of luck! And don't forget to dance.
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same approach as with any piano combo, stay out of the way harmonically add rhythm. You want to learn the tres or quartro parts on the guitar. Listen how Yomo compliments piano. You may play the montuno with the pianist occasionally or highlight parts of. Remember if you solo, phrase in clave (or the clave police will come get you). I think in these days as a guitarist if you understand the form and where the accents are you can get a nice feel and vamp. Now if you really want to jump off the deep end listen to some current Timba! as ccroft says above dont forget to dance
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My suggestion is to tart with the basics of rhythm guitar to play Son Cubano (Cuban Son) as played by traditional Cuban guitar players. The Cuban Son is the way to Salsa through Son Montunos and Guarachas, which have basically the same rhythm -but different tempo, orchestration and sound, played over "la clave". Here is an example:
Cuban Guitar Son (C) Exercises - Rhythm Guitar | Cuban Tres Guitar
Next comes comping, which is more advanced. Here are 2 examples of Son Montuno and Salsa comping:
Cuban Guitar Son Montuno Comping (G) Rythm Guitar | Cuban Tres Guitar
Salsa Cuban Guitar Comping (C) | Cuban Tres Guitar
Finally comes guitar licks as the most advanced technique. These are 2 examples with Son Montuno and Guaracha:
Cuban Son Montuno Guitar Licks (Em) | Cuban Tres Guitar
Cuban Guitar Guaracha (G) Guitar Licks (11-19) | Cuban Tres Guitar
As some have mentioned, guitar players can also learn from "Treseros" (Tres Cubano players) who play Cuban Son and Salsa with a guitar-like instrument that has only 3 double strings.
https://trescubanoguitar.bandcamp.co...-cubano-guitar
This is the original instrument to play Son Cubano and over time was replaced by the piano when Cuban music groups went from "Trios" (3 players) through "Sextetos" (6) and "Septetos" (7 players) to full orchestras and big bands to play Mambo, Afro-Cuban Jazz, Salsa, Charanga-style band, and the most current music genres Songo and Timba.
https://trescubanoguitar.bandcamp.co...gm-tres-cubano
https://trescubanoguitar.bandcamp.co...-cubano-guitar
The Tres Cubano is a beautiful instrument that is coming back, and there are many great professional Treseros from Cuba in the scene and recording around the world. Guitar players can learn a lot from the Tres Cubano's original and authentic technique. Compay Segundo from Buena Vista Social Club (BVSC) does not play Tres Cubano or a traditional guitar, but a guitar he adapted adding a 7th string (paired with the 3rd) and replaced 4-5-6 with string one octave higher which he calls "Armonico", but he plays it mainly as Tres Cubano. Eliades Ochoa also from BVSC plays a traditional guitar with 4-5-6 string 1 octave higher as well.
By the song names below, it also seems that there's confusion about some Cuban rhythms. It's no uncommon to categorize and label everything that sounds Cuban or Caribbean as Salsa. But there are different music genres with different rhythms such as Son, Son Montuno, Guaracha, Chachacha, Guaguanco, Conga, Bolero, etc.
My Latin Brother from Benson is not Salsa and it has a unique rhythm guitar pattern.
Claudia from Chucho Valdes and Paquito D'Rivera is Bolero.
Mambo Inn if it's the version of Mario Bauza is Afro-Cuban Jazz which usually requires adapting the guitar sound to the arrangement.
Again, because of the complexity of the Cuban and Salsa music, I'd recommend starting with the basics, build a strong rhythm foundation, and evolve from there.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Thanks to everyone who replied.
I went through Rebeca Mauleon's book. Clearly, there's at least one lifetime to be spent learning Salsa or Latin Jazz.
I also listened to most of the artists mentioned.
Of course, I wasn't looking for a detailed program of study designed to produce real competence in the genre. Rather, I wanted a few cheap tricks that would allow me to get through this gig with minimal effort of any kind. I'm aware that many jazz greats had a different sort of work ethic.
The closest thing I found to that was attending to what Santana did in live versions of Oye Como Va.
At times, the tune accents are xo xo ox ox / oo oo xo xo/. If I understand it, this is not actually the underlying clave (2-3?), but accents overlayed on it. Or maybe I've got that wrong.
In any case, Santana plays chords on those accents part of the time. He also overlays some groups of three 8th notes (thinking in 4/4) at other times. And, when he solos, he sounds like Santana -- which, I believe, is substantially due to the Mesa Boogie -- and my pedal board purports to imitate it (not very accurately IMO).
Mauleon talks about playing the montuno or parts thereof. That may be a worthwhile goal, but it means I have to figure out the montuno by ear, nail the notes and more importantly, nail the time. If I get it right, I won't be helping all that much, but if I get it wrong, the band suffers.
So, I figure, I listen for an accent pattern, maybe most often in the congas, and try to phrase with that, using either palm muted single notes that work with the montuno or chords of two or three notes. Then, solo with the Santana button.
As always, this forum is a terrific resource and Muchas Gracias! to the members kind enough to help out.
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You get this by stealing ideas or licks that stand out from recordings.I wanted a few cheap tricks that would allow me to get through this gig with minimal effort of any kind. I'm aware that many jazz greats had a different sort of work ethic.
Charlie Parker uses the same 12 notes Charo does.
The more you learn by ear the faster and easier it gets to hear something and copy it.
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Bird uses a lot of the same rhythms too… there’s clave in bird!
Wasn’t he the only American jazzer who could keep up with Cubans?
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That reminds me of a friend who played a lot of salsa - he said the Cuban guitar players would go into the Santana thing! Might not be a bad shout… Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Your instincts are correct, you get it right they smile you get it wrong you screwed the band. The conga player plays an 8th note ride with his left hand, the 2,4, 4and with slaps and tones in the right creating a bridge between the bass tumbao the bell and the piano. Find a recording thats in the style your band is playing with same instrumentation and put on repeat and play along by ear with the info you have until it starts to 'sit' youll find you can use funk riffs and other things you can make work, if they give the space a guitar player can have a lot of fun with this. Be aware of the clave direction so you can accent with the drum and piano. Old Cal Tjader and Tito records are the best to practice with because they play standards in clave so you can hear how the melody phrasing is effected and theyre playing the changes in tunes your already used to. Most of the time youll probably be playing Mambo or Guaracha feel and those 50's-60s Tjader recordings are the best examples for learning and feeling the accents. Last thing (mabey) if theres dancers youll probably play a few cha cha chas, dancers are very sensitive to this one and it is almost always played watered down and incorrectly. The Tjader or Tito examples are the ones to listen to (oye como va drove tito crazy till he got his first royalty check)
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Mauleon's standard cha cha cha groove seems to be the Oye Como Va lick. Originally Posted by Rickco
Well, lick isn't the right word. It's not clave, but it's a pattern overlaid on top of clave. What would be the right term for it?
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Keep in mind that "Salsa" was a branding name in the USA that linked a group of different Cuban dance rhythms together. Check out Machito Orchestra or Sonora Matancera or Israel Cachao's records under his own name or Johnny Pacheco Charanga music or Noro Morales or the rhumba roots music of Los Munequitos de Matanzas, etc. Cuba is one musically deep well then and now.
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I came to "latin " feels as an american. From outside the "afro cuban culture and from an american musical background it took many years to learn the forms and understand the completely different way the Cubans I learned from felt the music, we could have a thread that went on forever. Ive spent half a lifetime studying and playing this music and when I go to Cuba I feel like an outsider ever though they would never condescend. But here in the US the popular and familiar forms are from the '50s mambo craze. All through the 50s and 60s the dance records were pretty much playing straight tumbao over a standard. Prez Prado et al. These were authentic rhythms played by the best players, these and Tjader in particular are the best place for someone to start. the clave direction is clear and spelled out bass tumbao gives the feel and these early "mambos" are easy for outsiders to hear the parts, things like Titos "cherry pink..." "Buena Vista" was a great suggestion although I have to say Ry and his son brought nothing to the table musically but, bringing all that music out for us to hear and making the world aware of those great musicians more than makes up for it. Really listen to those early mambo records, pick standards you know and comp along (in clave!) till your comfy. Dont worry about authenticity just groove and if you want to add to your stock value get the percussionist to teach you guiro which you can pickup and really be a hero (the perc player will show you how) remember this is dance music and the dancers are dancing to the percussion and bass, Rumba groups are just perc and vocal and will groove you to the max. I ve been fortunate to study with and get to know some of the top players of this music and the message has always been the same, "your job is to keep the groove going" to me one of the most impressive things with the authentic bands is they can repeat an ostinato endlessly but it never gets tired or sloppy.
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I understand that the musical tradition is incredibly rich. Probably too much for one lifetime. I have spent the last 20 years immersed in Brazilian music and still struggle to achieve modest goals. There are a lot of parallels in the way musicians over scores of years have developed a diverse musical culture. Originally Posted by Rickco
So, I appreciate the suggestions for ways to begin to scratch the surface.
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Hehehe... I came to 'latin feels' as a white Canadian teenage hippy some... gasp... 50 years ago. I seriously doubt anything we did was authentic in the slightest. Sounds like Ricko and TresCubano have more experience than me with the real deal.
We were performing some jazz standards, and we noticed Song for My Father got some folks up and dancing. We just kinda expanded on that for several years. Samba de Orfeu etc. Picked up some tunes by Flora and Airto. Wrote a bunch. Tried out Ray Barretto / Fania grooves. We noticed the more people danced the more gigs and more $$. So you can play some improvisational music that feels good, comes from the heart, and get some reward. Just enough to get by. Or at least you could back then in all the college towns from Bellingham to Santa Cruz.
'Salsa' in N. America covers a lot of ground. There's the Puerto Rican and Dominican additions. Some say it really got underway in NYC in the 60's.
My love for Cuban music came back to me a few decades later on, mostly by way of Buena Vista when it came out. I really enjoy Eliades and Compay. It is 'guitar' music to a large degree. (guitar in quotes since it's mostly not a guitar, but surely looks like and plays like one)
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If I had a lifetime do over Id be all over Brazilian, thats guitar music! just discovering a lot of it recently....wow Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Theres actually a lot of guitar music in Cuba, but we strayed a little, the O.P. was asking about salsa but mentioned a few tunes that arent actually in that genre. Basically we were trying to give guidelines on what Cubans would consider good "marcha" I use the term Cuban because thats where it originates, "Salsa" was mainly a NY version of Cuban son, there are many legendary clashes between the 2 houses of clave. Salsa is a highly organized and very defined form that takes years to develop and requires good experienced players. Latin jazz is a loose term here in the US that generally means anything over a clave based "latin feel" the tunes the OP mentioned are great familiar tunes for a band with a wider more jazz oriented direction which is why I mentioned the old mambo stuff. If you can get that to sit your in! I fairly recently got to hang out with Oscar Hernandez for a few hours, you want to hear salsa...? Spanish Harlem Orchestra
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I may have used the term "salsa" incorrectly. I don't know what else to call it. The tunes had congas, tumbao (here and there) and a lot of montunos. They played American standards and pop tunes (eg Groovin') with that feel. All I need to do is phrase with it, not step on the piano and solo like Santana. Originally Posted by Rickco
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I just cant let this go frankly never expecting to talk about "arfo cuban" rythym playing on guitar on a guitar forum and as you can tell very dear to my heart. Check out the bell patterns in Rebeccas book. Guitarists have been using the 6/8 bell pattern in funk music forever. You can use the cha cha cha pattern lightly the mambo pattern pulling out a few beats all the bell patterns give the clave and often give the clave direction easier to hear. Chunking small chords to these patterns will give you everything you need for salsa or latin jazz feel particularly since you already play Brazilian. As an exercise strum some chords on the bell patterns in the book (theyre really easy) against any of the recordings mentioned. You already know the Brazilian clave so this will feel very intuitive and give you some chops you could actually use in Brazilian also (with some adjustments). When I first starting studying my teachers insisted I learn these patterns regardless of the instrument I was learning. Having these patterns in the bag you can groove with the bass and piano while augmenting what the perc is doing. For me learnng these patterns expanded my rhythm pallet for all styles and became part of the way I hear everything and very much expanded my jazz explorations.
may the clave be with you...
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