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In the last 2 days my playing is returning to normal. The more regimented practice sessions have helped. After thinking about it more, I think the jam sessions with the intermediate players is a major culprit in this. Has anyone else experienced this? I am thinking I am going to play 3 songs, all duo with the bass player on this jam and then hand it over to the rookies. I want to see if that helps. I think the sloppy drummer is messing me up and then I'm chasing my tail and forming bad habits and bad focus.
I'd also like to hear more on switching guitars. Someone here was saying if you change guitars all the time it can be a problem.
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05-28-2023 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
Maybe that’s weird.
The instrument obviously matters and different guitars will affect your chops differently, but it’s a little bit This Way Lies Madness for me. So maybe that’s just sort of a personal thing.
The players are a bit different. So obviously you’re not going to be playing all your best stuff and feeling like you’re in the zone 100% of the time with a band who’s not at your level, but I think maybe you should be able to bring something to the table that makes them sound good too? Especially considering it’s a session. I realize these are paid musicians in the house band with you, but it’s your session, so I guess it’s your vibe to set.
We moved to a new city about a year ago and there’s a great session but the skill level can be pretty all over the map. It would be silly for me to be down on my playing because I’m playing with a high schooler on drums every time I go and she’s not quite keeping up. But also it would be silly for me to go there and just cut and expect the end result to sound good.
So I guess I’m trying to say that you might not sound the way you want or feel good playing with certain musicians, but if you can’t produce a musical result, that’s a reflection of your musicianship and not necessarily theirs. I think your skills are yours to maintain.
Two other important points:
1. if you don’t enjoy a gig, then absolutely drop the gig. But that should be because you don’t enjoy the gig, not because your skills are suffering for playing it.
2. You should also allow yourself some leeway to have ups and downs. Sometimes it just isn’t clicking. Reevaluating your practice and goals and prioritizing your gigs and stuff is a good place to go to get things rolling again. But ruts will always find you. Not a bad thing.
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Yes good input.
The house band is unpaid intermediate players. I'm certainly doing everything I can to make them sound good and they are benefiting big time from that in terms of how they sound. We have a good relationship and they have been grateful overall. They are the best of the best unpaid intermediate players!
My concern with this is not so much how I'm doing on the bandstand, but how my subpar playing bleeds into the rest of the week even after the session is over.
My playing can be very good at times, but is highly variable and I believe it's not solid yet. In fact it's fragile. Put me with a great drummer and bass player and it's nearly on par with a pro jazz player (whatever that means). But if anything is off my playing goes downhill fast. My focus is fragile.
I have worked on improving this. I used to lose focus due to the crowd, the booker, restaurant staff, people taking video of me, doing band leader stuff like cues and count offs, and all kinds of external factors. I've defeated all of those now and the last remaining distraction is the other players if they are not great players. My guitar teacher says it's impossible to sound good and be creative when they other players are not good. That is all well and good and I can accept that, I just don't want to have a general decline in my skill level that continues long term.....going downhill like I said.
I agree on not tying things to any particular instrument, but someone mentioned switching guitars often can affect things. I can see that, as we are trying to coordinate microscopic movements and milliseconds of timing when we play they guitar. So a few millimeters difference can really change things and cause you to miss notes or feel uncomfortable, leading to lack of focus, and this leads to a lack of ability to express yourself artistically. Maybe someone has more info on that?
I do enjoy this gig, as it has been making a lot of people very happy and that's what music is all about. I'm ok with ups and downs, just need to address them when I notice them.
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Interesting, I am coming from a totally different place than you, perhaps it may be useful for a completely different perspective. I am a semi-retired pro on indefinite sabbatical. I lived in NYC for a decade where I exclusively paid my rent playing gigs, teaching, arranging, composing, recording, as a guitarist, bassist, and MD. I moved to my wife's hometown 2 years ago after we had our first kid, and we just had our second. My partner is way more successful than I could ever hope to be (from a specific capitalist-sort-of-viewpoint) and so we decided I would be a full-time stay at home dad.
When I was working as a gigging jazz guitarist, I ran a variety of trios, (bass and drums or organ and drums) at a bunch of cool spots around town, had residencies and such. Those gigs were fun, but a bit intimidating, because even though it was 'my band', I was working with players that I always thought were out of my league. I was lucky (and I'm a super nice guy) to be able to play with some really tremendous musicians, and I will always be grateful for what I learned in the process, but boy was it hard!
Meanwhile, I was also working as the guitarist and MD for a pop group that was put together by a studio executive. The guys and the band were not as skilled or proficient as I was, but I quickly learned how to make those rehearsals/gigs/video shoots really fun, as well as a great musical opportunity. It would have been easy for me to mail it in when I was working with that group, but instead, I found new challenges in running a band that actually NEEDED to be run efficiently. I really learned HOW to be a musical director. I learned to REALLY listen to everyone that was playing. I learned better COMMUNICATION skills when dealing with musicians from a variety of backgrounds (some don't know theory, some don't know chord names, some can't sing in tune, etc). All of these skills I honed by working with folks that were 'less mature' musicians.
In addition to all of the educational capital I accrued, I also HELPED a bunch of people. I am first and foremost a teacher, and so I was able to impart a great deal of knowledge and opportunities to other folks. This is an immeasurable wealth that cannot be attained through practicing an instrument alone or playing a gig with a bunch of cats that swing harder than you. Apples and Oranges. As a practicing Buddhist, this act of Dana and it's universal karmic benefits far out weigh any inconveniences I had during my work with those folks. My guess is that the 'intermediate' musicians that you are working with are receiving a tremendous amount of information and energy from YOU, and that ultimately that may be more important than any of your concerns (re: how you feel about your playing, how others perceive your playing, your own personal focus/practice)
Since we relocated to Pittsburgh I have mostly taken a break from playing music, but about a year ago I started getting the bug again and started seeking out players. For a variety of reasons, my whole perspective on playing music with folks had changed, and as such, I was/am most interested in playing music with folks that are passionate and excited about playing (rather than necessarily the BEST players around). I am no longer stuck up my own ass about 'jazz' and what it means to 'play jazz'. I'm finally having a lot of fun playing with all sorts of musicians (that 8 years ago I would have turned my nose up at). Just last week I had a (2nd) rehearsal with a (hopefully) new fusion project. We are trying to play my original tunes, but the organ player and bassist don't really 'get' playing changes. I could:
1) Be frustrated that I have to explain the process to them, grind through it and be resentful
2) Start looking for better musicians (took a year to find these 2 guys in PGH)
3) Accept that everyone is at different levels in their musicianship, understand that I brought them in for their individual strengths, and help them learn new concepts that will make them better musicians
The answer is fairly obvious to me.
I hope you can find a way to take more joy in your generosity. I suspect there is a great deal to learn from these excursions with 'intermediate' folks, however it may be something unexpected. Keep yourself open to the experience.
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Originally Posted by Hartguitars
We had our son just before covid hit New York so I was staying home with him until recently. We left the city about nine month ago. Been fun being somewhere new.
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When I was a student, I used to play with great musicians, it was a nice town, every day there was one or two jazz jam sessions.
It sounded good because they played good, I didn't.
I barely understood what I played but as you know when you belong to a kind of community, everyone supports everyone and you believe the stories they tell.
When I came back, I thought I was able to do a lot of things.
I figured out how bad I was, I wanted to build something but when I tried, everything was wrong, they were mediocre as I was, so playing good wasn't really possible.
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
As an aside: I also tend to think poorly of my playing when I’m playing with musicians who are better than me because I feel like I’m chasing to keep up. So it’s pretty easy to get a Goldilocks kind of thing going.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Master players can help lesser players sound good, but the reverse is not generally true.
As an aside: I also tend to think poorly of my playing when I’m playing with musicians who are better than me because I feel like I’m chasing to keep up. So it’s pretty easy to get a Goldilocks kind of thing going.
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I don’t think that contradicts JazzisGoods point.
Master players can help lesser players sound good, but the reverse is not generally true.
it's impossible to sound good and be creative when they other players are not good.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If they are all lost (form and changes) you are more worried about what they play so you can't play a good solo.
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Perhaps comparative musicianship means somewhat different things across the various styles of music?
I suppose it is possible that at least one guitar player began playing a particular style and stayed with it exclusively throughout their life, but don't most explore many multiple styles? The recording industry tries to present a musician as always having been a certain category of player for consistency of branding and promotion to maximize focus, success, and revenue, but isn't it more the truth that coming up through their path to recognition they learned and played other styles on the way? Then does the record company have them sign a contract with a clause which prevents them from public display deviating from their branded style?
Anyway, while free to play any styles it seems natural to notice some things.
Categories
- styles where the intent of the performance is to strictly reproduce the original music; Classical, Shows (pit), Rock (tribute bands), Blue Grass
- styles where the intent is to recognizably reproduce the original music; Jazz, Blues, Rock, Country, Folk
- styles where the intent is to produce not necessarily recognizable unique production of music; Jazz, Blues
Arguably my categorization is a diffuse sketch to suggest asking what's considered musicianship across these different styles
- for strict reproduction, the idea of "interchangeable parts" suggests that if two musicians can do it and what they are doing is the same, either could be used expecting the same result. The high level of skill set ensures swapping one for the other makes no difference.
- for recognizable reproduction, there would be more variation in the result of using one musician over another
- for not necessarily recognizable unique production, it looks like a high enough level of skill set results in not making a difference in one aspect (success) of the result, yet the resulting music may be very different
With Jazz especially, this looks like an inversion of the idea that interchangeable parts results in the same result into interchangeable parts gives different results, but the result is still successful. Unlike the other styles (except Blues), the Jazz musician is expected to be able to play "in the Jazz style" in general applied to any tune rather than showing up having prepared specific tunes.
If this is true, does this have implications for comparative musicianship?:
- for strict reproduction, musicianship has a clear definition regarding the specific execution of the music
- for recognizable reproduction, musicianship has a vague definition regarding the execution of the music
- for not necessarily recognizable unique production, musicianship is back to a clearer but more general definition regarding the success of the music
Evaluation (criticism) of musicianship
- for strict reproduction, criticism is specific (you played the wrong note, line, or chord, or the wrong timing)
- for recognizable reproduction, criticism is vague (what you played doesn't sound right)
- for not necessarily recognizable unique production, criticism is back to clearer but more general (not feeling it, ain't digging it)
However; the shift from tune specific to musician general (Jazz) criticism seems to follow a diminishing gradient; as if offering criticism within the strict reproduction context is very useful, but in the not necessarily recognizable unique production context of Jazz it's not really useful - more like the thing that needs to change is who is playing, not what or how they are playing. If that is true (is it?), do Jazz musicians rarely experience criticism because they more likely to just experience being not asked to play with some people?
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As an aside:
Is it possible this is a situation where buckling up for some incremental improvement might help with the band?
If you’re only playing three tunes to open the session you can pick three blueses or something. Then add a tune a week and give them the whole week to learn it. And since you start with blues you can just give them a blues in F and you don’t have to play the same head every week. Pretty soon you’d have a little book together, yeah?
Maybe you’re already doing that. But I would guess calling tunes that the beginners in the group don’t know would exacerbate the problem.
Not sure if that helps.
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This is the best advice I have ever gotten on an internet forum and it clears up a lot of my issues.
I've decided to go into the jams simply to lift everyone else up. If my own playing sustains some damage from that I will accept that and I will repair it with a good practice regiment.
Reflecting back on the last 3 weeks, the main feedback I'm getting from people is that they are so happy that I'm helping everyone sound better and learn more. It started as a small jam with 3 in the house band and 2 who came to jam, to now having 20+ musicians in only 3 weeks. A few people tell me "nice solo" or "loved those chords" but far more people are telling me "thank you so much for making the jam sound good and helping everyone play better." They are telling me what it's really about.
I'm not a teacher, I don't have any experience on that but I will give it a shot. People are eager to learn and dying for some input, so I assume nothing will go wrong with that. People really come to learn, not to hear me play sick bebop lines.
One thing that was holding me back is I'm not really the worlds greatest jazz guitarist. I don't claim to be some kind of expert. But I guess it's all relative. The people at the jam are eating it up when I spend 30 seconds giving them a few small tips. They clearly want more of that and they have decided I'm worthy of learning from.
Originally Posted by Hartguitars
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
Maybe mentor is a better word.
I went to college in Virginia and then moved to New York and now we’re back in Virginia in the same area. So it’s been fun hanging out with all the older musicians who had helped me kind of get my feet wet.
A few times I’ve been hanging out with people and just mentioned some thing they told me fifteen odd years ago that really stuck with me and they don’t even remember. But it’s just all those little logistical pointers. They make such an enormous difference when you’re just trying to get it together.
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Something about my experience, I've always been bad at timing, not about keeping the beat but how I play themes, the saxophone doesn't help for that because there is a lot of latence. The sound has to be made by the player, when you want a good sound and your instrument is not in a good shape. It's worst.
I sometimes played with drummers who wanted to be leaders, they played very straight and often complained of my playing. They were not the best drummers I knew even if they were good.
Others maybe better than others, when they noticed I was bad, they kept the beat and created kind of polyrhythms, they didn't care if I was right or wrong, they just listened and took advantage of my mistakes in order to make something more interesting.
I've got a lot to tell about other experiences but you won't read.
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Originally Posted by Hartguitars
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
I learned and still learn so much by playing with and observing more experienced and capable musicians. Not just playing stuff either; how they conduct themselves, their attitudes, the way they go about things, that stuff. Just as important.
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
This idea that "pro" guitarists playing 6 nights a week never have to deal with bad drummers is also misguided unless they have a regular drummer who has no outside life and has timing as solid as the rock of gibraltar. Six nights a week means there are more often people subbing which means crap drummers at times. At my busiest I had forty or fifty drummer's phone numbers on my phone at one time just trying to keep all the slots filled. One drummer gave me all those numbers in a single sitting, lol. Was a great resource. The better players are often booked up, Guys who can't count are always available. I have told otherwise acceptably decent drummers "the gig is yours if you hit the rimshot with authority" and they proceeded to limp wrist it the whole night, intentionally. Others came back and admitted they weren't in the right after they pulled that shit with a band leader THEY respect and get their ass chewed over it, lol.
On the other hand, you should never shut a drummer out who might not be any good if they show great desire to learn and absorb from the guys around them. I have had guys come to jams who couldn't play a shuffle to save their life but they wanted to be able to do it. Without giving them a place, a jam, to learn from more experienced guys that would've been one less opportunity for them to grow. Guys gave me opportunities like that when I was younger so there are moments when you got to return the favor. It's made me a few friends. Their attitude is everything. Just remember, it's a jam, not something set in stone. Take it for what it is. Otherwise if you can't handle it, make it a "pro jam" where only solid players are allowed up on stage.
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