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  1. #51
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?
    I always thought it was relatively straightforward, but it’s interesting how people fuck it up, so maybe it’s not.

    I learned to do it by listening to Jim

  4. #53

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    Going wildly OT, but a few thoughts on rhythm guitar

    - a lot of my favourite rhythm playing is post war - Tal Farlow, Jim Hall and that Freddie Green one note thing is all post war (Freddie was playing full chords early on) - there's a swing era to play rhythm guitar and a bop era way of doing it.
    - one thing I did remember being hard was learning to play an even four in time rather than in 2
    - even medium tempo gypsy swing jazz rhythm was a lot more in 4 than it was in 2. Check it:

    - playing fast in 4 is hard
    - I really like listening to good rhythm guitar - I think that's important

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?
    Sounds great! I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.

    It's all on the drumless gigs when things like that are revealed. I played with a trad trumpet player, first time I showed up and asked so no drummer? He looked at me funny and said, no... you are the drummer. I mean, yea, kinda obvious haha.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.
    I think perhaps the problem with jazz these days is folks are skipping that 100 level class
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Sounds great! I would think when JH was coming out of age it was a pre
    requisite for a jazz guitarist to be able to play a solid swing rhythm.

    It's all on the drumless gigs when things like that are revealed. I played with a trad trumpet player, first time I showed up and asked so no drummer? He looked at me funny and said, no... you are the drummer. I mean, yea, kinda obvious haha.
    Well that's reflected in what I think of as the forgotten piano trio line up - bass, guitar, piano, popular through the 40s and 50s, and basically killed by Bill Evans and co AFAIK. And Jim's first record was that line up.

    Listen to the guitar player doing the 'bongo' trick on this recording by Ahmad Jamal. Red Garland stole this song arrangement for Miles, of course.



    Tal Farlow sounding like a trap set with brushes



    But given Jim didn't basically invent piano style comping on the guitar until the 60s... That's a lot of history where the guitar was playing rhythm. It's a big old slice of who we are. Too ignore that history I think is to ignore what the guitar is at its most basic, and how that can be used in jazz. Even when he was comping, Jim was strumming.

    And that spectrum between straight four time and more interactive but still highly rhythmic comping is I think a road less followed in jazz, except perhaps by Peter Bernstein.

    I will say of Kurt - he does actually strum a lot of his chords too. But has for me more of a rock influence when he does this. Like those major seventh voicings with a fourth in the bass.

    3 3 2 4 x x

  8. #57

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  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    This may be of interest - has been posted before

    Jim Hall's "My Funny Valentine" Chordal Comping Transcription

    Me: Holy cow is that cool, way to go Steve!

    Also Me: I'll never in a million years sit down and read this without getting a headache.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  10. #59

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    I like how jangly and indie-ish Kurt sounds here. Not so many effects.


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I like how jangly and indie-ish Kurt sounds here. Not so many effects.

    Yea, like if Johnny Marr went to Berklee (luckily that never happened)


  12. #61

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    [QUOTE=Irez87;960321]I think four to the floor is harder than "modern compin"

    Once you get voicings under your fingers and learn to hear the movement, you learn to skate on top of the rhythm section. Don't get me wrong, skating is hard to do.

    But playing legit four to the floor--you have to learn to drive the band--that's a lot harder than it looks.

    Btw, my favorite example of Jim Hall playing four to the floor:



    beat a lot of y'all didn't think Jim Hall could sound like that, huh?[/QUOTE

    I'm reading a book, "Fifties Jazz Talk", and Brookmeyer talks about that group in it. He said that "although it's not documented, we were probably the first performing avant garde ensemble. We did a lot of group improvisation, and sometimes when I played piano, it sounded more like Webern than jazz."

  13. #62

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    If you don’t dig Pat’s music you don’t dig Pat’s music but no one can deny his talent. Making fun of the hair style and facial expressions of the most influential and worldwide successful jazz guitarist and composer of the past 45 years makes you guys sound absolutely pathetic. Motherfucker plays circles around you all day and all night, every day and every night and you crack wise about his looks? There’s a lack of class alright.
    Ignorance is agony.



  14. #63
    Whoa... I never said he couldn't play. If you read my posts, I've said that he's an excellent musician. I've also said that I really dig his early bebop playing.

    If I could get those same lessons that we've all heard on Youtube--I'd pay to get my ass kicked by Pat--because he's a great player.

    I just don't like HIS style of playing.

    My frustration stems from everyone comparing my playing to Metheny--when I know they were talking about my muddy ass tone and not my actual playing. It's like talking about Michael Jackson. Maybe you're a pop artist, but you are trying to get a Frank Sinatra type sound. However, people keep comparing you to Michael Jackson. MJ is a fantastic performer and a hell of a singer, but his style is light years away from Frank Sinatra. MJ is more modern. Frank is more, well, Frank.

    I've never gotten into fusion, or Pat's stuff. I've focused on bebop, swing, and hard bop musicians--that's the sound I'm chasing. So to be practicing all that and listening to all that and one after another everyone is saying "why are you copying Pat Metheny"? It got beyond frustrating. So my mild distaste for Pat's playing become sort of a hatred, because I was forever chained to his association--and I really didn't want to be. It'd be a big difference if I wanted to sound like Pat.

    Then I started listening to those interviews where he bashes Kenny G. I dunno about you, but I hang around a lot of top level musicians. Instead of saving up to buy a L5CES, a Monte, or a Benne (all amazing guitars) I spend money studying with top level musicians. No one that I have studied with would ever say things like Pat did about Kenny G in public. Would they say it to me in private, heck yes. I know pro's who hate Bill Frisell and hate Sco (I like both of em). But they don't say it in public because it's bad form.

    The only musician I will ever give a pass to is Miles Davis, because Miles built so much more than Pat could even imagine. Miles is allowed to have an ego and be an asshole, not Pat. Miles also dealt with a lot of people treating him like shit and shit talking him because he was black--did that happen to Pat?

    Like I said, my sour taste for Pat won't harm him any. Fact of the matter is, this thread wasn't even about Pat Metheny. It was about closing your eyes while you play--I thought that was an interesting topic that I was currently wrestling with in my own playing.

    I also have an aversion to playing guitars with flat wounds, Thomastik strings, and guitars with thick tops.

    Here's the thing, whiskey. I've been personally attacked on this forum before--in fact, I left because of it. So I might say bad things about Pat Metheny, yes that's true. But I would never bad mouth you.

    So that's my whole explanation. You'll can talk about Pat till the sun goes down. I've said enough, I'll stay mum on that. Just don't ever compare my sound to Pat's. Truce?

  15. #64

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    IIRC Pat trashed Kenny G because he did something atrocious with a Louie Armstrong's record...or something. Well justified then, yes?

    Kenny G's son is a serious metal shredder btw, and can kinda play Gypsy jazz a little bit, kinda... Still, at least he's not following his daddy, which is pretty cool, makes the world better for the future.

    Any pro jazz guitarists hating on Sco or Bill, well, they deserve any misery that their lives brings them. I hope they lose all their gigs, and only play for $50 on weekends. Thats right, Im putting a curse on them!

  16. #65
    Mum's the word on Pat Metheny from here on in--unless you make comparisons between his sound and mine--thems fighting werds.

    Can we get back to my OP or kill this thread? Like I said, many people talk about closing their eyes or not looking at the fret board. I'm interesting in how it changes our note choice, our navigation of the fret board architecture, and how it helps us connect with our inner ear. When I studied jazz performance in college, there were a few students who would make the practice room pitch black and play their horn.

    And Hep, if I told you who said that about Sco and Frisell--I'd have to kill you--mwahahahaha

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Mum's the word on Pat Metheny from here on in--unless you make comparisons between his sound and mine--thems fighting werds.

    Can we get back to my OP or kill this thread? Like I said, many people talk about closing their eyes or not looking at the fret board. I'm interesting in how it changes our note choice, our navigation of the fret board architecture, and how it helps us connect with our inner ear. When I studied jazz performance in college, there were a few students who would make the practice room pitch black and play their horn.

    And Hep, if I told you who said that about Sco and Frisell--I'd have to kill you--mwahahahaha
    Well that's a clue right there. Maybe someone we both know... I'll get to the bottom of it!

    Joking, it's ok. The way I look at it, whoever hates on Sco and Bill have no soul, so they've been punished already.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I'm reading a book, "Fifties Jazz Talk", and Brookmeyer talks about that group in it. He said that "although it's not documented, we were probably the first performing avant garde ensemble. We did a lot of group improvisation, and sometimes when I played piano, it sounded more like Webern than jazz."
    That was trendy at the time. Here’s Hall on a piece by Gunther Schuller featuring Ornette.



    Jim was IIRC a composition major? He certainly referenced Berg in his book.... I can imagine Jim appreciating the economy and tightness of Weberns music.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That was trendy at the time. Here’s Hall on a piece by Gunther Schuller featuring Ornette.



    Jim was IIRC a composition major? He certainly referenced Berg in his book.... I can imagine Jim appreciating the economy and tightness of Weberns music.
    That's what I heard. I think you can hear it in his soloing, and--especially--his accompaniment

  20. #69

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    I recently started practicing with my eyes closed and I was shocked at how much difference it makes . I think because the guitar is so oriented to visual patterns on the fretboard , when you take that away by closing your eyes it's like your ears and hands suddenly come alive . That's what I found anyway .

    As far as Pat Metheny goes , I thought his Kenny G rant was more entertaining and inventive than most of his records . Kenny G really is the nadir of American culture .

  21. #70

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  22. #71
    Ergh, I made a promise--no more Mr. PM talk.

    So it's raining in Washington, right outside Seattle. AND--I'm listening to John Coltane's After The Rain.

    I'm gonna say it because I've lived out East... the rain actually sounds beautiful out here.

    I'll have to record playing over the rain one of these days--the rain sounds like the wash of an exquisite ride cymbal--with a hint of rivets strategically put it.

    The rain sounds like Elvin hitting the ride cymbal--that's it.

    Wait... what was I talking about?

  23. #72


    Crappy playing, but listen with headphones so you can hear the rain!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    His whole diatribe against Kenny G was beyond obnoxious--I don't like Kenny G either--but, grow up! I just don't like him!
    I guess the reason for metheny’s rant has been forgotten and people only remember the rage. Anyone who claims to respect the tradition should be appalled at Gorelick’s criminal bad taste and cluelessness in overdubbing himself on that Louis Armstrong record, as if to say I’m at the same artistic level as one of the giants of jazz and deserve to be hanging with him on the same recording. This happens a lot where I live, in a very commercial city where branding is everything and people are desperate to associate themselves with a name player, to be good by association if you will. By and large they’re mostly crap though and the majority couldn’t swing from a vine!
    Last edited by Jazzism; 07-05-2019 at 06:35 AM.

  25. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Ergh, I made a promise--no more Mr. PM talk.
    So... playing with your eyes closed. I guess we exhausted that thread... I thought there was more to talk about here.

    I'll give some ideas so that we don't devolve the thread into another PM hate fest/ PM love fest--that was never the intention of this thread...

    Anyway, playing with your eyes closed:

    1. Makes the guitar more tactile. You can feel the position you are occupying on the neck, you can feel the thickness of the string depending on what string you want to voice a note. You also can feel where your picking hand is in relation to the strings. There's much that you can feel on the guitar to correct bad technique that you can't necessarily see. Someone mentioned finding new pathways on the fret board when his eyes are closed as opposed to looking at the fret board (and seeing patterns and positions). I agree 100%. I would love to film myself playing with my eyes closed and with my eyes open--I am curious to see how I navigate differently (I know I do).

    2. My favorite--makes the sounds of the guitar more present. You focus on hearing melodies and harmonies more when you take the visual out of the picture. You connect with the melody more when you close your eyes. You can connect with what you are hearing in your head more--you can connect with what you are hearing in your environment (the rhythm section, the horn players) more.

    I played drums again at my local jam session. I'm not a drummer, but I like trying to play other instruments. Anyway, I got caught up in the ambidextrous nature of the trap drum set. I kept looking at where the floor tom was, where the snare was, where the flat ride was, and where the hi-hat was. Then I closed my eyes and focused on hearing each part of the drum and feeling out where it was spatially. I actually played better than when my eyes were open. I was able to hear how all my rhythms worked together instead of trying to rely on my eyes to visually coordinate everything.

    More thoughts?

  26. #75

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    the thread has drifted but I would say, your eyes don't make any music. I found myself looking at the fretboard out of shyness I suppose. preferring not to look out into the crowd. then I realized my eyes/brain were making visual decisions not musical ones. I realized I didn't need to look at that damn thing anymore and in fact the music flows better and more intuitively when I don't look, I know where all the sounds are so I don't need to look! But sometimes I look anyway, probably because of some self comforting mechanism I suppose. I guess the way I would say it so that every player can relate is, you look until you dont have to look, then sometimes you look anyway.

    all the best
    tim

  27. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch View Post
    then I realized my eyes/brain were making visual decisions not musical ones. I realized I didn't need to look at that damn thing anymore and in fact the music flows better and more intuitively when I don't look, I know where all the sounds are so I don't need to look!
    Looks like you finally caught me.

    What you said is exactly why I wanted to put this thread up in the first place. The same thing happens to me--but my musical choices are far less advanced and true. Closing your eyes isn't about showing off or ignoring the audience. It's about making the ear to finger connection stronger and overriding the eye to finger connection. I can only close my eyes when I feel comfortable with the people I'm playing with--it's not a way to escape in a shy knee jerk reaction kinda way.

    There's aural pathways that light up when you close your eyes and mute your visual senses. Some might say that closing your eyes essentially closes you off to the rest of the band. If your ears get sensitive enough, and the other rhythm section players really know how to play song form--you won't miss your cue to end your solo.

    Now, if I could close my eyes and play accompaniment... that's the next frontier. That's my goal, to connect with everyone on the bandstand when I play accompaniment--not to play memorized grips that sound good together. One day... What do you think, Tim?

    I always found those videos of Ted Greene explaining harmony while improvising 4 part Bach Chorales on the guitar to be utterly AMAZING. I think, I can't say for sure, but I think he was able to do that because he studied the Chorales so closely that he could hear how they manifested themselves onto the fret board. I might be wrong, though.
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-06-2019 at 03:07 AM.

  28. #77

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    Single notes I prefer not to look at the fingerboard. Closing my eyes makes me concentrate even more and it is effective. Unfortunately I don't feel as though I can do the same with chording. It is a goal, however.

  29. #78

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    I can only say that the greatest jazz guitar solo I ever saw live was Jimmy Raney playing "Lover Come Back To Me".
    When he played that solo, he wasn't looking at the guitar; he had his eyes closed, but he wasn't looking down. He looked like someone having an epileptic seizure or something; it was actually painful to look at.
    But he was playing the most beautiful lines (at a fast tempo!) I've ever heard.
    He spoke about that type of thing in an interview he did with Terry Gross on NPR.
    He said jazz was all about waiting for that moment to come, when you seem to be in another state of consciousness, and the music just flows out of you. He said you have to know enough about music to be able to play a good solo; for when you can't reach that state, but those few times that you do reach that state (for lack of a better word) are what jazz is all about. He seemed to infer that you can't just turn it off and on; it has to come to you.
    Stan Getz (who Raney played with in the 50s) called it the alpha state.

  30. #79
    sgcim, I'm not comparing myself to Jimmy Raney (though, HE's the influence I would love other people hear in MY playing--then I would be free of...well, you know...) But I think I've gotten into that alpha state before--but my lines never come close to Stan Getz or Jimmy Raney.

    After I really get into a solo, I feel disoriented and dizzy. It's almost as if I'll faint--and that's not an overstatement. But when I'm in that state (it might be alpha or something else) everything else stops. It's just me and the music around me. I can't feel my legs, or my arms--and my everything becomes focused on my sense of hearing. It's really weird.

    HOWEVER--here's what separates me from Raney and Getz (besides, well, everything )-- when I get into that state, I get OVER excited. I loose track of the groove and of the architecture of my lines. IE, I lose my FOCUS. We spoke about this in another thread, but I need to work on my concentration when I enter that "state". It's not a matter of focusing on the notes or anything like that. It's just a matter of focusing on being PRESENT--in the groove, in the context of the rest of the band, and within the overall sound of everything and everyone on the bandstand.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    sgcim, I'm not comparing myself to Jimmy Raney (though, HE's the influence I would love other people hear in MY playing--then I would be free of...well, you know...) But I think I've gotten into that alpha state before--but my lines never come close to Stan Getz or Jimmy Raney.

    After I really get into a solo, I feel disoriented and dizzy. It's almost as if I'll faint--and that's not an overstatement. But when I'm in that state (it might be alpha or something else) everything else stops. It's just me and the music around me. I can't feel my legs, or my arms--and my everything becomes focused on my sense of hearing. It's really weird.

    HOWEVER--here's what separates me from Raney and Getz (besides, well, everything )-- when I get into that state, I get OVER excited. I loose track of the groove and of the architecture of my lines. IE, I lose my FOCUS. We spoke about this in another thread, but I need to work on my concentration when I enter that "state". It's not a matter of focusing on the notes or anything like that. It's just a matter of focusing on being PRESENT--in the groove, in the context of the rest of the band, and within the overall sound of everything and everyone on the bandstand.
    It took years of playing every day and night for Getz and Raney to get where they got. How many people have that 'luxury' today?

  32. #81
    Why not just love and appreciate the journey?

    Music takes a lifetime to learn, and another lifetime to play what you've learned.

    That sounds exciting to me, to be forever learning.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Why not just love and appreciate the journey?

    Music takes a lifetime to learn, and another lifetime to play what you've learned.

    That sounds exciting to me, to be forever learning.
    If you’re not up for that, I don’t know why you would bother with it tbh.

  34. #83

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    I usually play w my eyes closed, just easier for me, I might glance @ the board if I decide to do a sudden jump from the lower to the upper register, etc.
    Sometimes I kinda wish I made more eye contact w the audience but it's just not in me I guess.
    Way back in the day that's what people were taught, make a connection to the audience not just w your music, but your eyes as well.
    Might get more of a crowd response that way, but won't improve your playing.

    btw, not a fan of PM, Sco, Frizzell or Rosenwinkle, so flame away!